ginmar ([info]ginmar) wrote,
@ 2006-08-01 09:29:00
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Nothing says male privilege like demanding that we ignore biology so you get to fuck unwrapped




What the hell is wrong with alternet? They give a counterpoint to Glenn Sacks, of all people, the twinkly anti-feminist MRA apologist who never met a male whine he didn't like. Just when things had gotten sensible with the rejection of that whining sperm squirter's suit to avoid birth control and child support, alternet grants Sacks an opportunity to compare decidely unlike things and muddy up the waters. Namely, that a man's right to fuck casually is somehow inviolate compared with a woman's right to decide to waht to do with the contents of her body. I expect the next round will include men demanding that their contribution to her body be returned forthwith, no matter the expense, inconveniance, or indeed, impossibility.

I've seen studies that show male birth control useage is at 20%. (I haven't been able to find live links but I'm still looking.) When men go to prostitutes, one of the most common things they request is sex without condoms. In the Third World, this is so common as to be unremarkable and has led to the spread of AIDS in astonishing numbers. Rather than agitate as a group for more male birth control, or utilize other sexual acts which do not offer any chance of pregnancy, there's a lot of men who continue to wihne that 'she said she was on the pill!' as if it excused their own lack of precaution. It doesn't.

In the case of Choice For Men, the choices the guys want are the ones their daddies had back in the good old days, when a guy could fuck a girl without a rubber and abandon her without so much as a backward glance if she 'got' pregnant. No matter what lies or coercion he used, she was always the sucker for falling for them, and he was never judged for being a lying or manipulative bastard. She was a slut; he was just a guy, doing what guys do, and she should have kept her legs crossed. There were no 100% accurate ways of identifying paternity, so the guys got off scott free. Children were a hindrance then, so you didn't often see men doing much except abandoning them wehn the going got tough, or even slightly inconveniant. With men not doing their share, women were left to do everything---raise the kid in sexist times without access to really good jobs or daycare, while men added insult to injury and criticized their sexual morals in being trusting or loving enough to believe a guy when he said he loved them. The standard response to this chain of events is criticism that just brushes off both male responsibility and judgement of same: "Oh, that's what men are like. Why did you believe him?" Because if you don't believe him, you get called a fat and ugly bitch, repressed, a cocktease, or a lesbian? Those were and are your choices to this day, in some segments of the population. The man--and his buddies---who wield such terms have never been subject to analysys or criticism---till now.

Basically, what Matt Dubai wants is the ability to fuck without a thought, with his partner being the one to shoulder all the worry and responsibility of sex and possible pregnancy. With all the accusations of deadly female entrapment going on, it's interesting that nobody buttonholed Dubai or Sacks and asked them one crucial question: "So, hey, do you regularly inform women that you don't want kids and that you hate birth control and that you just want to fuck them and forget them and if they get pregnant you'll demand that the laws of nature and physics get ignored so you can pull up your pants and go off and fuck somebody else? Do you tell your lucky Cinderella that you can only for yourself and that you'll prove it by giving her a disease if not a baby, and then your only thought will be for yourself? So, how about it, Sparky? Were you upfront and honest about this?"

Glenn Sacks has a twinkly demeanor but ultimately his viewpoints are just more of the same MRA/FRA crap. If a man is convenianced by a woman, anywhere at any time, he's a victim, and it doesn't matter if it's biology that he refuses to acknowledge, the laws must ignore reality and focus soley on what's good for the man. It doesn't matter what kind of damage he does, women and children must be left behind for the good of the man, thereby shoving women once again into the role MRAs are most comfortable with: housecleaners, housekeepers, endlessly cleaning up men's messes and sperm deposits, and doing so silently lest they be called gold digging bitches who should have kept their legs crossed. The fact that the men in question are busily trying to uncross those legs with lies or coercion is never used aginst them, while the fact t hat their birth control useage is dismal. In a way it's like arguing with MRAs over battered men. They want to whine about something instead of actually doing something about it. More importantly, they want women to fix their problems. They don't want to get off their asses, they just want to complain about women. And then they expect us to fuck them. Talk about being a sore winner. You get what you want, and then you bitch at the woman who fucked you. Makes one wonder what you're projecting.

Reality is, men don't get to have the same choices as women do because biology doesn't care what men whine. Men have to make a decision before their pants come off, and contrary to what C4M say, that choice isn't just keep your pants on. It includes, using a rubber, having a vasectomy, having various kinds of sex which have no possibility of pregnancy. This has been repeatedly oversimplified by opponents into saying that us feminists are advocating that men have to choose between abstinence or celibacy. Either they're stupid or they're dishonest, and they have a fixation on the one sex act that offers the opportunity for impregnation----and on men having that one sex act on their terms and their terms only----that they're not being honest about.

Ultimately, the C4M argument isn't about men's rights, it's about what their wants, and what anyone who espouses this idea wants is a happy-go-lucky existance without condoms or responsibilities, wihch are shoved off on women. The choices they want are all of them, and the only way these are realistically possibly is if someone else is deprived of their choices by the irresponsibility and selfishness of the other party. C4M proponents act as if conception were some deep dark secret that has been cunningly hidden by women from men for millenia, as if the chance of pregnancy is something they never heard of. With that premise dismissed, they have excuse.

Use BC of some type, no matter what, or pick a sex act that doesn't cause pregnancy if the thought of fatherhood realy makes you twitch. Even so, you have to deal with this simple concept: accidents happen. Some people look for meaning and plan when an accident happens, because it makes them feel better. It's the same reason people blame the rape victim, because if she can be blamed, then they can ignore the fact that it was the guy next door who raped her, not the Bushy-Haired Stranger in the non existant alley. If men are allowed to continue to blame their exes with deliberate and sly methods to entrap them, their own behavior will not be exposed for the charade it is----it's on a par with those pharmacists, who wish to impose their own 'morals' on women who use birth control, but they also want to keep their jobs even while they refuse to perform them. There are consequences to acts. A pharmacist who refuses to dispense medication should logically be fired, but the typical response of these pharmacists to that is to demand, in fact, that they be allowed to keep the job and perform only those aspects of it that they deem acceptable! Meanwhile, at least one pregnancy has resulted from a pharmacist's refusal to do his job, and the idea that he could be liable for that birth of that child appears to have occurred to no one. The desire of the C4M guys and the pharmacists are exactly the same: they wish to use and project upon womens' bodies their wants and desires, and leave those women with the consequences. If you're against abortion, how illogical is it to be against birth control, the one thing which has some chance of preventing unintended pregnancies? If you're against sudden fatherhood, why are so many men reluctant to inconveniance themselves slightly in order to avoid a huge obligation later?

They both want different things that they state as their aims. As always, observe the outcome. The anti-BC people arean't against BC, per se; they're against sex without consequencesfor women. The C4m guys don't want the consequences and they don't want the onerous duty of prevention, either. The two groups have far more in common that anyone's admitting. One group wishes to force women into pregnancy or celibacy, while the other merely wants to use passivity as a defense and frankly is indifferent to the harm they do: "I didn't want to be a father!" is a wish unless accompanied by steps taken toward putting preventative measures in place. Even then, when the accident occurs, the C4M group tries to bend fate to their advantage. If men do not have the advantage, so used to it are they that its absense is felt as an active theft, a threat to their well-being. This is the mindset, also, that ones sees whenever girls---who do, after all, make up more of the population than boys-----achieve some sort of numeral superiority in something that is good rather than bad-----poverty, for example, remains female-and-child dominated, yet no one complains about that.

All these things are interlinked and related. I propose a frontal attack. If these C4m twits won't be honest for fear of not getting laid---not taht there's anything wrong with that------then embarrassing questions should be asked, preferably at high volume. If nothing else, this approach---which I have used---tends to separate the men from the boys in terms of courage and ability to take it while dishing it out.

What do you think?


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[info]shakatany
2006-08-01 03:27 pm UTC (link)
The anti-BC people arean't against BC, per se; they're against sex without consequences. And the consequences they seem to want are only for women *sigh*

Shakatany

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[info]ginmar
2006-08-01 03:38 pm UTC (link)
Aw, crap, I thought I put that in.

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[info]ultimategirl
2006-08-01 03:46 pm UTC (link)
From the link:
Ma portrays children as a mother's albatross, forgetting that parenting is also the greatest joy a person can experience in life.

Hang on, what? Parenting is 'the greatest joy'? The guy who is defending mens' efforts to opt out of parental responsibilities is calling parenting 'the greatest joy'? Oh, wait, he means it's the greatest joy for women, whether they wanted to have children or not; for men it's a joy only when they really, really want to be fathers. Nevermind.

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[info]nothingmuch
2006-08-01 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Yes, parenting is the greatest joy a person can experience in life, which is why men should be allowed to experience it for free.

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[info]ultimategirl
2006-08-01 04:25 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, writing a support cheque every month, and thus contributing to the kids having food and clothing, really dampens the joy. :/

I should point out that I have no doubt that parenting brings joy to many people; I'm just tired of people dismissing the reality that being a mother is hard work by saying "but children are such a JOY!!!111!", as though the two concepts cannot co-exist. And in this context, where it sounds as if men should only have to take on their responsibilities to their children when it's convenient, statements of 'parenting = great joy' sound rather disingenuous.

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[info]broceliand
2006-08-01 06:33 pm UTC (link)
Amen. I love my son more than anything in my life. But I'm not really cut out for *Motherhood* in it's June Cleaverish sense. It's a struggle for me and always has been. It's a tremendous amount of work, and there are great hunks of time during which it's not remotely joyful (like this last 8 months or so), and is composed of equal parts worry, frustration, exhaustion, financial negative and aggravation.

Frankly, I think it's about time we were honest about that.

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c4m
[info]nothingmuch
2006-08-01 03:55 pm UTC (link)
The "choice for men" argument is so stupid, I don't know why it receives so much attention every now and then.

Why should the state have any interest in protecting men from the burden of paying for the children they sire?

It goes totally against the conservative ideals of small government, personal responsibility and the man being the head of the family.

It also goes completely against the liberal ideal that society should protect and nurture the young and vulnerable.

Men are never going to be allowed to opt out of child support. It's just never going to happen. Men are just going to have to do what women have done: use birth control.

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[info]xviragox
2006-08-01 04:23 pm UTC (link)
The desire of the C4M guys and the pharmacists are exactly the same

The [anti-BC people and C4M guys] have far more in common that anyone's admitting


I don't know how I didn't make these connections myself. Now I'm even angrier about the amount of C4M-defending that goes on in childfree groups, which are populated almost invariably by people who are in favor of BC and furious about godbag pharmacists.

There are a handful of CFers who see the hypocrisy and speak up against it whenever someone makes one of those "boohoo, he shouldn't have be a daddy" posts, but there are at least as many who are eager to believe ugly things about women.

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[info]3_shubunkin
2006-08-01 05:32 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, that's one of the things that's frustrating in the childfree commmunity. The overwhelming majority of people there are women, but there's still this strain of woman-hating. Now I will say that women do end up being the enforcers of you-must-be-a-mother, and a few decades of that tends to wear down one's love for one's fellow woman. But I don't see why that reality doesn't also allow you to say "You didn't want a kid? Why didn't you wear a condom/get a vasectomy/do something besides PIV?"

I know of several guys who have been "oopsed", or at least didn't decide actively to have a child. None of them were so bold as to use a condom. They deserve (and got!) a hearty "bed-made-lie" just as much as a woman complaining about childcare does.

I think that if enough feminist CF'ers speak up, we'll start to stop the C4M apologists. A lot of it is reflexive, and if people actually stopped to think about it, I doubt that anyone would feel that warm and fuzzy about guys who somehow can't manage to use birth control or safer sex.

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Ugh.
[info]nirvana_1
2006-08-01 04:35 pm UTC (link)
I posted a few replies there under Durga_is_my_homey. That whole argument is flawed.

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[info]brigidsblest
2006-08-01 04:48 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I read that article this morning. It was reassuring to see that a large chunk of the people replying saw through this guy's bullshit, but it was disheartening to see that not all of them did.

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[info]jackytar
2006-08-01 05:11 pm UTC (link)
"If a man is convenianced by a woman, anywhere at any time, he's a victim,"

Not to pick nits, but do you mean 'inconvenienced'?

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[info]ginmar
2006-08-01 07:10 pm UTC (link)
Me? The queen of...something or other I can't remember?

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I like the connection you've made between anti-choice (for women) and C4M.
[info]lorenzo_dm
2006-08-01 11:33 pm UTC (link)
I think that this connection can be made clearer by getting at the connections between the material consequences of both positions and how they diverge from the actions necessary to realize their [i]stated[/i] aims.

For instance, as you know, if anti-choicers actually wanted to reduce the rate of abortions and unplanned pregnancies they would wholeheartedly advocate the widespread use and availability of BC. Instead, they advocate precisely the opposite in order to realize their true goal of imposing pregnancy upon women.

Likewise, C4M advocates, if they were serious about making 'choice' for men a realistic possibility would be strong advocates of socializing the costs of reproduction and lowering the costs of motherhood to women (subsidized daycare, socialized medicine, government incomes for mothers, equal pay, ending workplace descrimination against mothers, etc.) policies, in other words, what would significantly reduce the necessitity and often dependence of mothers on financial contributions from fathers in order to be able to support and raise children while staying out of poverty. This would require a significant move away from the current system which is expressly set up to [i]make women dependent on men they have children with in order to stay out of poverty[/i].

Of course, the consequences of actually supporting such changes--reducing the dependence of pregnant women and mothers upon men for support--would in actuality be wholly unacceptable to them. What they instead seek is the right to impose the entirety of the costs and consequences of reproduction on women. This would, of course, [i]increase[/i] women's dependence on men they have children with as it would bring back the man's ability to simply walk away, a powerful threat against the security of women with children.

I hope that makes sense, anyway, I don't think I've done a particularly good job in communicating my ideas here...

In both cases the goals are to impose physical reproduction and its costs on women

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Re: I like the connection you've made between anti-choice (for women) and C4M.
[info]ginmar
2006-08-01 11:34 pm UTC (link)
No, that's a contradiction often noticed before. If you wish not to be a father, then take steps to prevent it. And so forth and so on. I think most feminists have been noting it for years.

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Re: I like the connection you've made between anti-choice (for women) and C4M.
[info]lorenzo_dm
2006-08-02 12:08 am UTC (link)
Oh, I agree, I was just trying to expand on what you raised in your entry.

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Re: I like the connection you've made between anti-choice (for women) and C4M.
[info]ginmar
2006-08-02 12:10 am UTC (link)
See, if I take it that far, though, I get called a paranoid mabn-hating, ball-busting dyke. And frankly, it's dire enough to speculate on what I just....did. The hatred for women that seems buried in American character just seems about impossible to uproot.

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Re: I like the connection you've made between anti-choice (for women) and C4M.
[info]semiotic_pirate
2006-08-02 06:36 pm UTC (link)
is this hatred for women inherent in other countries' character? As someone who (technically) has never left this country (not through lack of wanting to - at least for vacations) I lack the capacity to contrast and compare other countries to our own on this issue. I wonder if there is a graph/chart/table somewhere that shows this relationship between country character and femphobia. Yeah, newly coined term, femphobia, like it? I further wonder if there is a connection between how individualistic/communalistic a country's culture is with how women are viewed and treated.

Post Script: I favorited this post - as Steve Martin with his fake french accent kept saying to Jean Renau (sp?) in the Pink Panther... "Good one!"

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Re: I like the connection you've made between anti-choice (for women) and C4M.
[info]danaseilhan
2006-08-13 04:27 pm UTC (link)
It really depends on the culture.

It's funny, too. Primitive cultures are often stereotyped as being totally barbaric and anti-woman, but at least one I've read about (from someone who lived with them) treated women as just part of the tribe and culture and their work as being just as important as a man's. And men helped with the childrearing too. Women being treated as subhuman is not inevitable nor wired into the human psyche.

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Women and sex
(Anonymous)
2006-08-08 01:52 am UTC (link)
Women are always slamming the unknown dads. Why? because they know they are capable of having children , yet they have unprotected sex with a man , Who is the victim? women? Noway

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Fuck off, troll
[info]ginmar
2006-08-08 01:54 am UTC (link)
Takes courage to be a troll, asshole. Go fuck yourself.

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I want to be irresponsible
(Anonymous)
2006-08-08 04:46 am UTC (link)
and have someone else support me in the process. Here's what I'll do,
go out and get pregnant.

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Re: I want to be irresponsible
[info]ginmar
2006-08-08 10:54 am UTC (link)
You do that all by yourself, moron, and we'll see how long it takes for that star to rise over Bethlehem and just how fun your delivery will be.

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Re: I want to be irresponsible
[info]rednorth
2006-08-14 03:15 am UTC (link)
"and have someone else support me in the process. Here's what I'll do,
go out and get pregnant."

nicely put. it happened to my brother. she lied about having birth control. now she's got her kid (the she even circumcised the poor boy), she doesn't want anything to do with him, but certainly isn't complaining about getting child support. kinda ironic, since he's got custody for his daughter and living off a single parent pension, so she gets like $8 child support a month.

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Re: I want to be irresponsible
[info]ginmar
2006-08-14 09:48 am UTC (link)
Go take your bullshit to someone else's LJ, moron.

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Glenn Sacks
(Anonymous)
2006-08-09 02:58 pm UTC (link)
Glenn Sacks is the voice of moderation on many Men's issues. The personal attacks on him are not called for. When one attempts to argue their perspective by personally insulting one's advisary, you will only accomplish a demeaning of your own integrity and position.

Mike Sandifer

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Re: Glenn Sacks
[info]ginmar
2006-08-09 03:05 pm UTC (link)
Wow, Mike, you're a fucking moron. Sacks had defended Darren Mack's wife-beating and killing ways and now you're defending him.

Good job, illustrating how sympathy for wife-beaters and killers is moderation in the MRA world.

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Fucking moron
[info]ginmar
2006-08-09 08:07 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, asshole, you think I ahven't? "Lunatic fringe"? It's the whole fucking carpet. "Allegedly" killed his wife? What, did The Real Killer move from Brentwood to Vegas?

Also, asshole, you don't get unscreened when you take little potshots at my site, myself, or my readers. Second, Fox News? Yeah, there's a source for you.

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Re: Fucking moron
[info]emilyzilch
2006-08-13 06:20 pm UTC (link)
Mike Sandifer? Hahahaha. Dood, you are a pimp for the men's right's movement. <url=http://ancpr.com/blog/archives/154#more-154>Linky. Oh, how heroically you spin the story and not mention why you aren't given contact with your child...

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Re: Fucking moron
[info]ginmar
2006-08-13 06:22 pm UTC (link)
I knew the name sounded familiar.

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Re: Glenn Sacks
[info]chochiyo_sama
2006-08-13 03:06 pm UTC (link)
I suppose Anne Coulter is also a voice of moderation.

Excuse me while I laugh hysterically then vomit.

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(Screened Post)
Fuck off troll
[info]ginmar
2008-07-28 02:22 am UTC (link)
You know what's pathetic? Dipshits like you who come here repeatedly and accuse other people of what you do. And I still have the power to fuck with you. Worse yet....I don't care.

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