ginmar ([info]ginmar) wrote,
@ 2006-01-31 09:37:00
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Something doesn't smell right here
I've heard about the Janis Karpinsky story going around now about how female soldiers in Iraq, in Camp Victory, were dying of dehydration because they were afraid of being raped if they went to the latrine at night. Supposedly, the latrines are too far away.

Well, for starters, for some reason I thought this took place at Abu Ghraib. If you think these guys stopped at mistreating just the prisoners, you're far optomistic than I am. Adide from that, Abu G. gets mortared--or did when I was in Iraq---pretty ferociously. But Camp Victory is an entirely different story.

Simply put, there are latrines everywhere on Victory. I was at Victory at both ends of my deployment and there were latrines outside---just outside---every building, every tent. Second, what bothers me is that these women are armed. It's a war zone. Why don't they lock and load? Did someone order them not to? Or does someone not trust their judgement? Or is attempted rape just not good enough reason for a woman to defend herself?

That, by the way, should give those guys out there who whine that the true solution to rape is to arm women pause. These women are armed, but it doesn't matter because I suspect that if they don't feel they can use deadly force, they have very good reasons for thinking that. The upshot is that they're dying of dehydration. Bullets are no goddamned good if nobody will let you use them, and these are female soldiers who are evidently being preyed upon by male soldiers. Remind me again how women don't belong in the military because male soldiers will want to protect them? Where are these ubiquitous protectors now? I guess the protection racket has finally been exposed. They don't want us to protect ourselves against them.

Finally, I have to say that there are some people in the military who never fire a shot. There's guys who display a lot of bravado, but they joined up for the college money. There's girls who join up for the college money and who still do their makeup and worry about their nails. They're young, they're worried about being liked by the guys, and they're very concerned about being good sports. You have to think of yourself as a soldier, and neither these young women nor their command thinks of them as such. It's the command's fault, frankly; with rank comes power but also responsibility. A good commander can destroy a hostile workplace with ludicrous ease. A bad one merely ignored it. If these women don't feel they can defend themselves against their fellow soldiers, someone has more or less told them so.

This is why some people don't want women to be soldiers or athletes, and like the concept of WACS and Lady -ettes sports teams. When you're the former, you stand on your own two feet; when you're the latter, you're a cheerleader who gets to use the field when the real teams are done for the night.

Somebody high-ranking could have fixed this situation. Evidently they haven't? What's going on?

eta

You guys are kind of missing something. If this is going on to this degree, women aren't just dying. That's the worst case scenario. They're risking heat stroke and rape, or they're taking their chances and getting raped. Remember, behavior is a continuum with many increasing and decreasing options at either end. So what's going on here?

I'll reiterate: when I was at Victory, some knowledge of hte danger existed. My big question remains: if there was a danger, why were they telling women to protect themselves? Why not go after the guys doing it? (which is what happened.) As far as I know, not one single man was ever punished for the rapes I heard about on VM. No one was ever apprehended. So what's going on here?


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[info]shezan
2006-01-31 04:09 pm UTC (link)
Will you write a novel about a woman soldier in Iraq? That one's long overdue.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]ginmar
2006-01-31 04:13 pm UTC (link)
I've thought about it. It's going to have to come after the memoir, though.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]rapier
2006-01-31 04:20 pm UTC (link)
Pasted from the previous thread, because it makes more sense here:

My kid sister, she tolerates it (barely) when I do the Big Brother thing and advise her to do this or that, but I hope she listens if I tell her to be wary of the male soldiers around her.

But really, given the reality of the situation ... god, it feels morbid to even think of it, but would it be better for her to face charges for injuring or killing a fellow soldier in that situation, or to not fight at all? God, I hate even having to entertain the question. A few days ago, it would have been an interesting thing to talk about in the abstract sense. But the abstraction takes on a great deal of substance and probability now that my sister is on her way out there.

God damn this war anyway.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]chochiyo_sama
2006-01-31 06:01 pm UTC (link)
Kill the bastard. That is the better thing.

To not fight at all kills YOU--in your soul, which is a much worse death than the death of the body.

You know what's really scary and horrible?

In my school of 125 9-12th grade alternate school students, TEN have told me that they were raped. TEN. Have TOLD. Because they trust me not to judge them and to support them and to say that the guy (or guys--as there have been a couple of gang rapes to these little girls)is the PRICK--that NO *she* is not a slut and NO, it was not her fault for being (a) at a party, (b) drunk, (c) alone in a room, (d) passed out, or (e) the last girl left at the party.

If ten have TOLD me, it makes me feel nauseated and afraid at how many MORE of the 125 students have been raped and have NOT TOLD me. The ones who feel especially close to me have told. What about the ones who don't feel close to an adult?

WHY is rape so common? What the F*** are these guys who do this thinking? WHY do they think they have the right to pillage these young women's bodies and THEN label them "sluts"?

I sometimes I wish *I* was armed--and not hindered by my morality disability.

If I were God, there'd be a helluva lot more lightning strikes. And I know just the lightning "rod" I'd be aiming at....

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]john_of_arabia
2006-01-31 07:57 pm UTC (link)
What does the war have to do with it?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:50 pm UTC (Expand)

(Anonymous)
2006-01-31 05:57 pm UTC (link)

these are female soldiers who are evidently being preyed upon by male soldiers.

Which once again raises the question of why Osama bin Laden or any Iraqi "terrorist" is more of a threat to me than American men. I wonder if we can get away with declaring pre-emptive war on American males using this logic.

Thought not.

And the fact that a lot of you just squirmed in your seats at the mere suggestion, while the government's actions still seem expected to you (if unreasonable), tells me everything I need to know about the "rights" of men and women.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]ginmar
2006-01-31 06:03 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, women don't have any rights, don't you know? They only have the right to do what men want them to.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]mamid, 2006-01-31 07:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kajunhippie, 2006-02-01 04:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-01 05:40 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]walkerj
2006-01-31 07:21 pm UTC (link)
A good commander can destroy a hostile workplace with ludicrous ease. A bad one merely ignored it.
To do something, you first have to admit to *yourself* that there even *might* be a problem. A good bureaucrat's first rule is there are no problems. We don't do negative thinking. We have everything under control. A bureaucrat in uniform is still a bureaucrat.

take care,

John

(Reply to this)

Wait...
[info]bonobochick
2006-01-31 07:44 pm UTC (link)
Did I miss your weekly Surface post?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Wait...
(Anonymous)
2006-01-31 10:20 pm UTC (link)
Awww, is that Nim?

CUUUUTE!!!!

I've Googled for pictures of him at least three times, but never come up with anything.

Thanks. Between the subject of this post, the Alito confirmation, and everything else that's wrong with the world today, I needed that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Wait... - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Wait...
[info]ginmar
2006-01-31 10:43 pm UTC (link)
Yep. It's back there a few rants back. Yesterday, as a matter of fact.

Nice Icon, too.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]al_zorra
2006-01-31 08:16 pm UTC (link)
I've been wondering all along what was going on sexually over there.

No stories out of Iraq that I've encountered anyway, that were so much the common knowledge of Saigon as the r&r brothel in Vietnam, etc.

So I've been fearing is that this is convience derived from the new military in which women also serve -- local women, or brothels put up anywhere in Iraq may be too easy a target for attack, so this is another job turned over to our women who serve their nation.

Especially since rape and harrassment are so common in places like the Air Force and the Academies and so on.

I don't know about the army though.

(Reply to this)


[info]ladyfox7oaks
2006-01-31 09:01 pm UTC (link)
You're absolutely right, something doesn't smell right here at all... I'm having trouble finding this/these articles. I googled "Karpinsky" and found one article regarding Rumsfeld and torture/force feeding of prisoners. Help?

Among other questions ...why would not going to the latrine result in dehydration?, and deadly dehydration at that? I'm confused... and I don't have nearly enough information to even begin to offer any sort of considered, balanced or thought out opinion here.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ladyfox7oaks, 2006-02-01 04:10 am UTC (Expand)

[info]jeric_synergy
2006-01-31 09:14 pm UTC (link)
Dying of dehydration cuz they couldn't get to the LATRINE? Are they storing water in the latrine?? Why wouldn't they just bring water to their quarters? This sounds like bullshit.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]a_priestess, 2006-01-31 09:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]a_priestess, 2006-01-31 09:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eris_5, 2006-01-31 09:30 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]eris_5
2006-01-31 09:29 pm UTC (link)
If these women don't feel they can defend themselves against their fellow soldiers, someone has more or less told them so.

And that someone could even be society...thankfully I haven't been put in the same position (rape) but when I was younger and had less of a sense of self (esteem) I felt that I didn't have the right to say no to anything a guy wanted (short of sex) even if I didn't really want to do it...*sigh*

(Reply to this)


[info]tikvah
2006-01-31 09:47 pm UTC (link)
I say that we start buying porta-janes for women to keep in their tents and send them in care packages. It's gross, but until the system can be fixed, I want our women in uniform to have the option to NOT die of dehydration while avoiding asshole rapists.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-01-31 10:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tikvah, 2006-01-31 11:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 11:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-01-31 11:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 11:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Yeah, right...
(Anonymous)
2006-01-31 09:54 pm UTC (link)
People do not die from *dehydration* for not reliving themselves.

What planet are you from?

V-Man

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Yeah, right... - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - (Anonymous), 2006-01-31 10:25 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]rapier, 2006-01-31 10:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:40 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]ad_kay, 2006-02-01 12:31 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]journalfag, 2006-01-31 10:55 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]journalfag, 2006-01-31 11:10 pm UTC (Expand)
OT: Re: Yeah, right... - [info]mastergourd, 2006-02-01 07:16 am UTC (Expand)
Re: OT: Re: Yeah, right... - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-01 02:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]itsacountry, 2006-02-01 12:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-01 02:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]ad_kay, 2006-02-01 12:35 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Yeah, right... - [info]idemandjustice, 2006-02-01 11:00 pm UTC (Expand)
livejournal groupthink...
[info]darwinx0r
2006-01-31 10:32 pm UTC (link)
This post is an excellent example of livejournal groupthink.


I've heard about the Janis Karpinsky story going around now about how female soldiers in Iraq, in Camp Victory, were dying of dehydration because they were afraid of being raped if they went to the latrine at night. Supposedly, the latrines are too far away.

There's tens of comments, most of which take Karpinsky's claims at face value. That is, they sincerely believe that "female soldiers.. were dying of dehydration because they were afraid of being raped." You can just feel the outrage... that wiley BushCo. is at it again! But before we froth at the mouth, might it not make sense to first check if any women in Iraq have actually died of dehydration?

http://icasualties.org/oif/female.aspx

Has a list of Female casualties in Iraq. The majority of them died as a result of hostile action. Those who did not are listed as dying from the following causes :

5 Non-hostile - vehicle accident
4 Non-hostile - weapon discharge
2 Non-hostile - unspecified injury
1 Non-hostile - (no detail)
1 Non-hostile - accidental fall
1 Non-hostile - illness - heart attack
1 Non-hostile - illness

So.. out of the 15 female deaths in Iraq not resulting from hostile action, the total number of women who could have possibly died of dehydration is... 5. Karpinski was removed from duty in January of 2004, so presumably her statement refers to deaths she was aware of before that time. That leaves us with 2 women who could possibly have died of dehydration in their sleep.

Let's check this reality against Karpinski's statement :

Karpinski also testified that American female soldiers in Iraq were assaulted or raped by male soldiers in the women's latrines, and an alarming number committed suicide. "Because the women were in fear of getting up in the darkness [to go to the latrine], they were not drinking liquids after 3 or 4 in the afternoon," Karpinski said. "In the 100 degree heat, they were dying of dehydration in their sleep. Rather than making everyone aware - it was shocking - they told the surgeon not to brief on the details, and don't say specifically that they were women." Karpinski identified the commander who ordered that the cause of death of the women not be listed on the death certificates. It was General Sanchez, she said.

I call bullshit on this whole meme. Absent a sinister conspiracy to cover up these troop deaths by falsely assigning them to hostile causes, her story is implausible on its face. Of course, in her statement she specifies that the cause of death is "not listed" which would seem to rule out that hypothesis. In other words, Karpinski is just straight up lying.

Based on this transparent falsehood, I see no reason to believe anything else she has to say. YMMV.

=darwin

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

livejournal experts who rely on technicalities - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 10:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: livejournal experts who rely on technicalities - [info]journalfag, 2006-01-31 11:06 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: livejournal experts who rely on technicalities - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 11:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: livejournal experts who rely on technicalities - [info]journalfag, 2006-02-01 12:26 am UTC (Expand)
Re: livejournal experts who rely on technicalities - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 11:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: livejournal experts who rely on technicalities - [info]jeric_synergy, 2006-01-31 11:16 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: livejournal experts who rely on technicalities - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 11:23 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: livejournal experts who rely on technicalities - [info]darwinx0r, 2006-01-31 11:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-01-31 11:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]itsacountry, 2006-02-01 12:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-01 02:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: livejournal experts who rely on technicalities - (Anonymous), 2006-02-01 12:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-01 02:50 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]al_zorra
2006-02-01 01:01 am UTC (link)
There is a great deal here that is strange. Starting with the spelling of the name when you look to search engines -- there are so many variations spelling both her first and her last name in the stories you actually can access -- and then, these are all blogs, not major media of any kind! How weird.

When I searched her though, with this spelling -- Janis Karpinski -- and with Abu Ghraib as one of the search terms, a lot of major media came up including the San Francisco Chronicle, The New Yorker, The BBC, etc.

I also know that she was here -- Manhattan -- this last weekend, doing a lot of media for the talk she was planning to do Friday night about women in the military and Iraq, and the connection with Abu Ghraib. I happened to hear her here:

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/episodes/01202006

you can click on and hear the show as well. This is the quote on the screen, for that show:

Torturous Questions

Janis Karpinski, Colonel in the US Army, former commander of Brigade which oversaw the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq
and Craig Murray, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan until October 2004
- criticizes the use of torture in obtaining intelligence
» The "Bush Commission,", which is holding a mock trial of the Bush administration for war crimes this weekend
» BBC report on Craig Murray's criticism of intelligence gained from torture
» Craig Murray's website

I did hear that show (it's on our public am radio station).

I recall hearing her say on that show that, yes, the women soldiers at Abu Ghraib participated in the torture, but that the culture of torture that existed there was so extensive, that the female soldiers themselves were abused badly by the men, and that is how they ended up participating, according to the orders of their male abusers, in the torture, the photography and so on.

This is in connection with:

Second Commission of Inquiry On Crimes Against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration Opens Today

The second gathering of the International Commission of Inquiry On Crimes Against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration will begin today in New York. The commission will look into a series of charges the Bush administration has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. The indictments were drafted at the first commission held in October. Those scheduled to testify before the commission include the former head of Abu Ghraib, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski; former British ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray; the entertainer and activist Harry Belafonte, and former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter.

http://www.observer.com/20060130/20060130___thecity_newyorkworld.asp

As far as dying of dehydration: you can do that very quickly without drinking and being able to pee. You need to drink in order to pee. Peeing is a good thing for you over all general health, and the hotter it is, whether dry or humid climates, the more water you need. And the more you also need to pee to keep the system in good shape.

Anyway, you all knew that!

I don't if any of this is of any help.



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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-01 01:11 am UTC (Expand)

[info]drewbeartx
2006-02-01 04:01 am UTC (link)
This isn't related to the news you're talking about here, but I thought you might want to read this article: Reproductive Regression

Indeed, in another eerie echo from the pre-Roe era, the increase in illegal abortion in Jen’s (note: administrator of a women's health clinic in the South) area is so significant that a doctor from the hospital mentioned above contacted her. He asked for her help in setting up a special ward for the treatment of illegal abortions when Roe is overturned, because he knows the caseload will mushroom then. “He didn’t say ‘if’—he said ‘when,’” Jen said. “Chills ran down my spine.”

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-01 04:11 am UTC (Expand)
you're right
[info]redc1c4
2006-02-01 05:12 pm UTC (link)
something *DOESN'T* smell right here, and it's the story she's telling.

i only spent 21 years in the service, but i find it hard to believe that a 1 star general couldn't get ahold of someone, in service or out, to address the issues she's claimed exsited.

of course, seeing how poorly she supervised her unit, and how she failed in her command responsibilities, it's possible she's so ate up as to not understand how to buck something up the chain, but she could have asked a mildly competent enlisted person for pointers.

personally i think she's talking smack to divert attention from her own incompetence and failures as a soldier. the world, and the Army, would be a better place with her, and other senior officers & NCO's who claim they "didn't know" about ABG, in Ft. Leavenworth, alongside the swine that were doing the shit.

redc1c4,
waving the "Bullshit" flag

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Re: you're right - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-01 05:17 pm UTC (Expand)
you have a point: - [info]redc1c4, 2006-02-01 05:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: you have a point: - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-01 05:38 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]phyrewall
2006-02-02 06:19 am UTC (link)
A little bit of FYI to add to this:
Female soldiers at LSAA are now required to always have a battle buddy.

In my battalion they all have to carry a "rape whistle". (Acutally, all soldiers in my Bn are)

Though some of my soldiers express anxiety and feelings of "someone watching them", there haven't been any publicly reported cases of rape since I've been here. The stories of possible rape are most likely the cause of paranoia.

Now, I certainly believe that it is possible to get raped, but I'm tired of everyone treating females as utter weaklings. My female soldiers are freakin animals, and would most likely deftly remove the undercarriage of a single male attacker with a knife given the opportunity.

This craptastic story and it's proliferation gives soldiers in the military a really bad name.

Just my 29.40000 Iraqi Dinar.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-02 06:24 am UTC (Expand)

[info]john_of_arabia
2006-02-02 01:28 pm UTC (link)
I think the point is that when you're going to bring up a story such as this, you should have all the facts in hand, and go straight to the point. Also, calling someone who posts a legitimate rebuttal to ypur posts "asswipe" will gian you no credibility.

If you were there, and you know things that he doesn't, why don't you tell what you know? What facts from your experience do you have to bring to the table?

Obviously the military is imperfect. I never, in my entire time at FOB Speicher (9 months), heard of even one incident of rape, reported or rumored. That's not to say it didn't happen, but I think it absurd that a female would risk death rahter than take a piss out of fear.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-02 02:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]john_of_arabia, 2006-02-02 03:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Moment of silence, please - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-02 03:24 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Moment of silence, please - [info]last_thylacine, 2006-02-03 01:51 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Moment of silence, please - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-03 02:31 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Moment of silence, please - [info]phatmomma, 2006-02-03 03:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Moment of silence, please - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-03 03:26 pm UTC (Expand)
women in combat
[info]theleftovers
2006-02-03 10:09 pm UTC (link)
women cannot pee standing up. That makes them a liability in all war zones. Especially war zones in places where soldiers must drink massive amounts of water each day to avoid heat stroke or dehydrating. Set in places where the men don't have easy access to prostitutes and bar maids.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: women in combat - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-04 12:20 am UTC (Expand)
Six to Eight Times More Likely to be Raped in College
(Anonymous)
2006-02-08 02:41 am UTC (link)
Let's look at some rape statistics and see how just vulnerable women are in the military.

Among college students nationwide, between 20% and 25% of women reported experiencing completed or attempted rape (Fisher, Cullen, and Turner 2000).

Among adults nationwide one in six women (17%) reported experiencing an attempted or completed rape at some time in their lives. (Tjaden and Thoennes 2000).

According to a military survey where members can anonymously report rape or sexual assault, rapes have dropped by half from the mid-90s when 7% of military women reported being assaulted. In 2002 the figure was 3%.

So you are more than 6 to 8 times more likely to get raped while at collge than you are in the military. You are even about 5 times more likely to be raped while in the civilian population as a whole than you are in the military.

What's missing in this story about the military failing to protect vulnerable young women, is that the safest place BY FAR for young women to be shielded from rape is in America's military forces. The WORST place (and the bastion of liberalism by the way) is in America's colleges and universities.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

You left out something crucial - [info]ginmar, 2006-02-08 03:19 am UTC (Expand)

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