ginmar ([info]ginmar) wrote,
@ 2005-07-15 08:31:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Oh, and you know what else?
Someone in a previous post couldn't figure out what to say to rapists to get them to stop raping. Here's some clues. SAy this to your friends, family, coworkers and whoever if they say any of this stuff.

1. IF a guy says something sexist about a woman, tell him to shut the fuck up. Yeah, okay, see if you can get them to listen to reason. If they won't, tell them they're ignorant and bigoted. Say it loudly in front of lots of people.

2.IF a woman say something sexist about a woman, tell her to shut the fuck up. See above.

3. If a woman says she was raped, asked if she's okay, and not what she was wearing.

4. If you see a guy at a party pouring lots of alcohol for a woman, keep an eye on him. Don't blame the alcohol for the rape, either. It should make you nervous that you're probably making the same excuse that he is.

5. If your buddy bitches about his ex girlfriend or ex wife, get her side of the story. If he sounds vicous about it, there's a really good chance his ex isn't the dogfucking, cokesniffing bitch he says she is. Women are not evil. Watch out for guys who think they are. Watch out for guys who are looking for an excuse to believe women are evil.

6. If you read a newspaper story that refers to a rape victim's appearance as being 'attractive' or similir, write or call the editor. The victim's appearance is not relevant to the story.

7. If you hear of a rape at a college, tell everyone you know you hope the guy goes to jail, no matter how many goals he scored. Then follow the story. If your friends say ignorant things about rape, correct them. To do that, see further down the list.

8. IF a woman you know says she's been raped, believe her.

9. If a woman you know says she's been raped by a buddy of yours, believe her.

10. Take a good long look at your buddies. They're great to you: are they shits to women? Do you not give a shit? Then you are part of the problem. If it does...Tell them to shape up. If they don't, dump them. Your friendship is a reward. If they get away with being sexist assholes with you, they think it's okay.

11. Write to TV stations if they show sexist commercials and TV shows. Read up on sexism.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry, this list isn't very glamourous, is it? There's nothign fun to it, is there? No knights on white horses, no battles, just tedious day after day fighting, constantly, over small things. Worse yet, these are things you have to do yourself, not push off on women. Sucks, does't it?

Well, if you don't fight those small things, they become big things and men think they can get away with raping women. Adn the sad thing is, they can.

12. Read some books about rape.

13. Read some books about feminism.

14. If someone says something ignorant about feminism, correct them. IF they persist, let them know it's offensive, and that they are no longer welcome.

15. Rapists are not guys in alleys. They are not mysterious figures. They're ordinary guys. Take a good long look at your friends. You probably know a rapist. Deal with it. Don't deal with it by thinking the victim is lying.

16. Think about your ideas about rape. Then do some research and compare them to reality.

17. Think about rapists. Think about the idea that they're normal guys. See how that changes your world.

18. Think about the idea that maybe women have been telling the truth all along about rape, and it's men who have been lying.

19. Look at your kids? Ever notice how much boys interupt girls and treat them disrespectfully? Tell them to stop doing that.

20. Every time you want to say something about how women should protect themselves against rape, say instead soemthing about how men shouldn't rape.

If YOU want to stop rape, you must do your part, because people who don't do these things contribute to a rape culture. The rapist is a normal guy. He's just a bit more 'normal' than other sexually aggressive guys. He still calls what he does 'sex' though. If you don't do the things on the above list, it's useless for me to write the next list. You understand?

And now for the fun part. This is for guys who don't think what they're doing or what their buddies are doing is rape.

This one doesn't get a number:

Rape is not the same thing as sex. You do not get to decide what rape is.

1. Getting a girl drunk is rape. You're a rapist. It's not sex. It's not whatever word you come up with. It's rape.

2. Drugging a girl is rape. It's not sex. It's not 'working a yes out.' You're a rapist.

3.If you commit one rape, you're a rapist.

4. If you didn't ask her and she didn't say no or yes you might be a rapist. Deal with it.

5. If a girl had sex with you before, you are not entitled to have sex with her whenever you feel like it.

6. If you feel like having sex with a girl, she is under no obligation to comply.

7. She doesn't owe you if you buy her dinner.

8. She doesn't owe you if you get excited looking at her cleavage or whatever. Your arousal is your concern, not hers. IF you try and make it her concern, she, however, is entitled to do whatever is necessary to protect herself.

9. If you think a woman might like to have sex with you, ask her. If she says no this means she doesn't want to. Take her at her word.

10. Rape is not a game. It is not a competition that a woman loses. You do not get points for scoring. You're an asshole.

11. It doesn't matter how many people she's had sex with.

12. If she doesn't say yes, you're a rapist.

13. "She didn't say no' does not count as consent.

14. If she asks you to have sex with her, she is not a slut.

15. If she once asked you to have sex with her, you cannot then rape her whenever you want.

16. Sex is not something you earn. It's not a paycheck.

17. IF she is not capable of saying no you are a rapist.

18. If you are in a position of power over her that some aspect of her fate depends upon, you are a rapist.

19. If you don't have a gun, you're still a rapist.

20. If you use a condom, you are still a rapist.

21. IF she asks you to use a condom, you are still a rapist.

22. If she is wearing nothing at all, you are still a rapist.

23. IF she fucked every guy in the school but you, you are still a rapist.

24. If you are her friend, and she said no, you are still a rapist.

25. If you prevent her from saying no, you are still a rapist.

26. If she's too afraid to say no, you are still a rapist.

27. If she's too unconscious to say no, you are still a rapist.

28. If she says anything but yes or let's have sex you are a rapist.

29. If she says no while you are having sex and you do not immediately stop, you are a rapist.

30. If you were once married to her, you are not entitled to have sex with her once the marriage is over.

31. IF you are currently married to her or dating her, you are a rapist, if she says no.

32. If you prevent her from saying no or do not ask the question, you are a rapist.

33. It doesn't matter if you were drunk or drugged. You are a rapist. You're also in denial. You're not doing anything you're not capable of while sober.

34. If she's wearing nothing but a thong, and she says no, you are a rapist.

35. IF she's wearing a short skirt and she says no, you are a rapist.

36. If she's drunk and naked and ahs fucked another guy and says no to you, you are a rapist.

37. If you know your buddy is going to commit a rape, and you do not object, yell, shout, or try and stop him, then there's a very good chance you are a rapist.

38. If your buddy has raped a woman and you are still his buddy, you are a coward and you are contributing to a rape culture.

39. IF your buddy says things about how women ask for it and you don't tell him he's an asshole, you're encouraging a potential rapist.

40. If you do not fight rape, you cannot fight feminists who do.


Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

(Post a new comment)

number 21 on the first list..
[info]drusila
2005-07-15 02:46 pm UTC (link)
I would like to add a number 21 to the first list.

if you have children raise them to understand the diference between sex and rape. be sure that they know what things are unacceptable. do not raise them to believe that rape is only when a stranger kidnaps a woman and ties her up and beats her till she is bloody and has sex with her.
Make sure that they know rape is not cool and that if their friends are doing things on this list that their friends are not cool- they are dangerious and evil.
Define rape for them and help prevent it through your own children.

that is all.
thank you.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: number 21 on the first list.. - [info]valarltd, 2005-07-15 04:30 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]with_this_voice
2005-07-15 03:02 pm UTC (link)
Can something along the lines of "if you say that any woman who dresses provacatively or any woman who choses to pose for nude or explicit photos is a "piece of meat" or is asking to be objectified, you are quite possibly on your way to being a rapist if you aren't already one and you are also an asshole prick who needs to be neutered."

*glares at a troll I'm dealing with*

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 03:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]with_this_voice, 2005-07-15 03:18 pm UTC (Expand)
For your reading disdain part one - [info]with_this_voice, 2005-07-15 03:37 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part one - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 03:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part one - [info]with_this_voice, 2005-07-15 04:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part one - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 04:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part one - [info]with_this_voice, 2005-07-15 04:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part one - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part one - [info]ultimategirl, 2005-07-15 05:26 pm UTC (Expand)
Well, well, well.... - [info]chochiyo_sama, 2005-07-15 06:22 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part one - [info]fmh, 2005-07-15 07:31 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part one - [info]odanu, 2005-07-15 08:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part one - [info]ginmar, 2006-03-14 03:57 pm UTC (Expand)
For your reading disdain part two. - [info]with_this_voice, 2005-07-15 03:38 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part two. - [info]pdrydia, 2005-07-15 03:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part two. - [info]reynardo, 2005-07-15 04:22 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: For your reading disdain part two. - [info]pdrydia, 2005-07-15 04:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tcpip, 2005-07-16 04:17 am UTC (Expand)

[info]moonfruituk
2005-07-15 03:03 pm UTC (link)
This list is completely awesome. Thank you.

(Reply to this)


[info]h3salthea
2005-07-15 03:08 pm UTC (link)
I really think this should be part of freshman orientation for male students entering College/University...

..also have a version of it branded into the walls of every bar, tavern, club, and sporting arena....

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 03:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]forestdweller, 2005-07-15 03:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 03:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]h3salthea, 2005-07-15 04:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]magista, 2005-07-15 06:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Not their asses... - [info]broceliand, 2005-07-16 12:45 am UTC (Expand)
the scarlet letter - [info]britgirlsf, 2005-07-16 12:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]firecatmn, 2005-07-15 03:32 pm UTC (Expand)
by first grade? - [info]q_grrl, 2005-07-15 03:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: by first grade? - [info]pdrydia, 2005-07-15 03:55 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: by first grade? - [info]firecatmn, 2005-07-15 03:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: by first grade? - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 04:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: by first grade? - [info]firecatmn, 2005-07-15 04:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: by first grade? - [info]chastityswayy, 2005-07-15 04:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: by first grade? - [info]firecatmn, 2005-07-15 09:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]drooling_ferret, 2005-07-15 04:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]firecatmn, 2005-07-15 04:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 04:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]collie13, 2005-07-15 08:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hexyhex, 2005-07-16 12:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]collie13, 2005-07-16 07:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hexyhex, 2005-07-18 09:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]collie13, 2005-07-18 10:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Hazing - [info]britgirlsf, 2005-07-16 01:05 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Hazing - [info]collie13, 2005-07-16 07:36 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Hazing - [info]britgirlsf, 2005-07-17 05:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]firecatmn, 2005-07-15 09:11 pm UTC (Expand)
There must be some teachers here-- - [info]jeric_synergy, 2005-07-16 12:33 am UTC (Expand)
Re: There must be some teachers here-- - [info]magista, 2005-07-16 02:34 am UTC (Expand)
Re: There must be some teachers here-- - [info]whorl_girl, 2005-07-17 12:49 am UTC (Expand)
Re: There must be some teachers here-- - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-17 12:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]odanu, 2005-07-15 08:08 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]enname
2005-07-15 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Another print out for the fridge door, along with the list of ways to spot trolls. I feel I need a new fridge.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]with_this_voice, 2005-07-15 03:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]enname, 2005-07-16 03:11 am UTC (Expand)

[info]eleanor
2005-07-15 03:18 pm UTC (link)
When I was 17 or 18, I went to a party with a boy, and he said he'd get me a drink. Mind you, this was before date tape drugs, but not before Bacardi 151, which is what he but a great quantity of in my rum and coke. After my second one, I didn't feel very well and asked him to take me home. In the car, he tried to have sex with me. I was young enough, had enough to drink, and little to eat, and the results were predictable; I threw up on him.

I'd like to think he never tried that move again, but I only know that he never got a chance with me.

I have three girls: 13, 16, and 24, and they have each gotten the lecture about how if they go to a party, they should fix their own drink, open their own beer, and if someone is "tending bar," they should watch that perosn like a hawk.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]pokeyturtle, 2005-07-15 03:43 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]treehavn
2005-07-15 03:38 pm UTC (link)
Good list. Very good. Thanks for getting me thinking on a sluggish Friday afternoon.

This point really made me think about the way victims of sexual assault are presented by the news media: 6. If you read a newspaper story that refers to a rape victim's appearance as being 'attractive' or similir, write or call the editor. The victim's appearance is not relevant to the story.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]amaz0n, 2005-07-15 06:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 06:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]amaz0n, 2005-07-15 09:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]whorl_girl, 2005-07-17 12:55 am UTC (Expand)

[info]stephl
2005-07-15 03:46 pm UTC (link)
Hi -- I came here through my FriendsFriends list. Everything you say here is just so spot-on.

This is for guys who don't think what they're doing or what their buddies are doing is rape.

I'd add the general statement "Just because you're horny, no matter how you got horny, no matter who you claim *made* you horny, YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO SEX. Ever. With anyone."

And also "If you claim you can't control yourself and 'just gotta Do It,' then you have all the self-control of a dog, and I will treat you accordingly."

Thank you for refusing to accept all the bullshit excuses and attempts at mitigating criminal behavior. Thank you for refusing to accept that society must be this way. Thank you for encouraging people to do the same -- to refuse this bullshit and speak up.

(Reply to this)


[info]drooling_ferret
2005-07-15 04:06 pm UTC (link)
Before I read any of the other comments, I'd just like to say this is one of the most powerful statements about rape that I've read. It needed saying (and will need saying, over and over, for an unfortunately long time yet), and you said it just how it needed to be said. I really like the numbered list format, it's so no bullshit... the only way to miss what you're saying is to through willful blindness/ignorance.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]whorl_girl, 2005-07-17 12:59 am UTC (Expand)

[info]aitchellsee
2005-07-15 04:14 pm UTC (link)
The thing that always strikes me about the whole "you have all the self-control of a dog" thing (and I must say that I don't disagree with that analogy) -- is that I know people here on LJ who own/show/breed dogs or horses, and have a kennel or a stable where they stand real studs, and from all accounts the male dog or stallion can be trained to behave himself around females (though not when left entirely unsupervised and to their own devices, of course) and -- if animals are capable of learning self-control, then what's wrong with these specimens of Homo sapiens with their big brains and "culture"????? I mean, it's not a question of "Me have testosterone - see/smell female, must mount her rightthisverysecondyoucan'tstopme"...

HLC

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 04:17 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]valarltd
2005-07-15 04:38 pm UTC (link)
Must all consent be oral and explicit? That's certainly going to add a level of formality to my love life. My husband never asks verbally or directly. But he does ask, and I do respond. After 19 years together, we know each other's cues.

Then again, my responses are "yes" and "I could be talked into it."


I can see requiring oral and explicit for early relationships, but not after many years.
The rest, I am 100% behind.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 04:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]valarltd, 2005-07-15 05:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 05:40 pm UTC (Expand)
I don't think it's an exception - [info]klytaimnestra, 2005-07-16 05:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jfpbookworm, 2005-07-26 02:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ananas2003, 2005-07-15 05:20 pm UTC (Expand)
Thorough...
[info]doohickey
2005-07-15 05:01 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for writing this.

(Reply to this)


[info]delphyne_
2005-07-15 05:35 pm UTC (link)
That's a great list Ginmar, I hope it manages to reach a wide audience.

It's about time that rapists and molesters were called to account for their behaviour. They hide behind victim-blaming. That's what people who give advice to victims don't seem to understand, they are reinforcing the rape culture.

(Reply to this)


[info]bluerosesgirl
2005-07-15 06:00 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this, esp. for #30 and 31.

(Reply to this)


[info]liveavatar
2005-07-15 06:04 pm UTC (link)
(Apologies in advance for not being able to answer replies to this ct for a day or so.)

38. If your buddy has raped a woman and you are still his buddy, you are a coward and you are contributing to a rape culture.

This is the only one I'd question from this entire (excellent) list. I'd rephrase it a little: "If your buddy has raped a woman and you are supporting his denial out of loyalty, you are a coward and are contributing to a rape culture. If you tell him that he's raped someone and needs to turn himself in/get help/take responsibility, and don't hang out with him till he does, then you're helping to change the rape culture."

The rapists who *do* atone for their rapes and do whatever type of time they have to do, those guys need friends who really care about them while not letting them get away with any shit.

I'm reminded of someone I vaguely knew many years ago who went to prison for child molestation. A nearer acquaintance of mine, who was this guy's friend, kept denying he'd done anything even though they caught the guy showing porn to 11-year-old boys while his pants were down. My friend did *not* help this guy by "standing by him" as long as he was in denial.

Someone who would have visited him in jail while reminding him that he had fucked up really, really badly, that's what he needed.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 06:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]liveavatar, 2005-07-18 02:38 am UTC (Expand)

[info]fmh
2005-07-15 06:48 pm UTC (link)
Those last 40 points should be put on a sign and hung in the universities.
No, really, I'm serious.

(Reply to this)


[info]ashi
2005-07-15 06:49 pm UTC (link)
Hi, followed this from a link on [info]caprine's journal.

While it is mostly men who rape and women who get raped, anyone of any gender can be a rapist or a victim.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 06:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ad_kay, 2005-07-15 06:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ashi, 2005-07-15 07:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 07:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ad_kay, 2005-07-15 07:53 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]tymothil
2005-07-15 07:07 pm UTC (link)
A friend of mine posted a link to this.
While overall this is a good list, there's some clarifications I'd like:

>5. If your buddy bitches about his ex girlfriend or ex wife, get her side of >the story. If he sounds vicous about it, there's a really good chance his ex >isn't the dogfucking, cokesniffing bitch he says she is. Women are not evil. >Watch out for guys who think they are. Watch out for guys who are looking for >an excuse to believe women are evil.

I'm presuming from this that what you're saying here is that evilness and women are not automatically members of the same set, and not that no women are evil. Women, being human, are quite capable of being evil, but all the ones I hang out with aren't. (If they were, I wouldn't want them as friends, same for the men.)

>33. It doesn't matter if you were drunk or drugged. You are a rapist. >You're also in denial. You're not doing anything you're not capable of >while sober.

This one confused me a little. Are you talking here about a man who says something along the lines of "I was drunk, I didn't realize she didn't want to?". I'm speaking as a man who has regained consciousness while very drunk and realized that a woman I really didn't want to have sex with was in fact, on top of me and having sex with my unconscious (but apparently still functional) body.

>28. If she says anything but yes or let's have sex you are a rapist.

This one, and a few of the others along these lines, while definitely true with someone you're not in a relationship with, I'm going to have to disagree with them always applying, esp. in loving & trusting long-term relationships. Please note that I am not even remotely saying that a person in a long-term relationship can't be raped by their partner. But, I am saying, the rules can change somewhat, by mutual agreement . For one thing, I've never been in a long-term relationship (or casual one, for that matter), where the woman I'm with has been afraid to say "no" to me, and know that I'd stop right then. It's happened to me a fair amount over the course of time, actually. But, to kind of turn the tables a bit, when my girlfriend or wife (I was married for six years) wakes me up in a sexual manner, should I feel raped because I was asleep when she started? I contrast, say, waking up with my wife's mouth on me (to try to keep it as uncrude as possible) to the aforementioned regaining consciousness to find a girl I hadn't been with, and didn't want to be with, using my body, in an unprotected manner I might add. In the former, I was either usually pleasantly suprised, or could say "sorry, hon, not right now", in the latter I felt pretty damn violated.

I don't know, maybe I'm a bit more sensitive to this kind of thing, having lived some time in a humanities graduate student environment, where the whole "you have a penis, therefore you are evil raping scum" vibe was pretty damn strong. Are there ignorant, evil men out there who really believe the "she was asking for it" bullshit or that getting a girl drunk is a valid way to get into her pants? Yes, yes there are. Going to goth/industrial/fetish clubs, ren faires, rocky horror and the like, I've fended them off of a fair number of my female (and in some cases, male) friends over the years. I've also had to do the same where in some cases the agressor was female (usually towards female friends of mine). Yes, it happened less times then when the agressor was male, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Men and women are humans, and all humans are capable of immense evil.

Anyway, sorry, I'm rambling a bit. This is something I've given a fair amount of thought to over the years, both from being in relationships with strong BDSM components, things that have happened to friends of mine, and having lived in the aforementioned "penis=evil" environment. On a side note, I never understood why the same people who were saying how the American Male was rapine evil incarnate, always defended practices like widow-burning in India. Maybe it was just that particular campus.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-07-15 07:12 pm UTC (