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Mar. 2nd, 2012

drac emu
Does Feministe live for shitstorms or what? And what's with the approved attitude that mothers are the most selfless, perfect, saintly, overworked, superheroes in the world, while mothers like Renee get to say this type of shit? Oh, and did you know children always behave perfectly in restaurants, so it's now a bingo square? Whatever you mention is what you totally endorse and fight for, such as child labor and child torture. All's fair when it comes to defending mommyhood! Even for Feministe, home of the spoiled-mother enabling, it's getting a bit thick, and they have these previous gems to live up to:

@Amanda Marcotte,
Save it with your childless twisted logic. You cannot expect a child to behave like you because you my dear are an adult and they are a child. So stop holding them to the same standards.

@Diz my child has never over run me so how dare you suggest it. Don’t make it personal with me. Waiting for a child to calm down to talk to them acknowledges that they are going through something. I most certainly correct inappropriate behaviour but I do so in a way that respects my child as an individual something many people in this thread cannot seem to grasp.

Finally, if you don’t like the way a parent deals with it too damn bad. If the child is not in danger it is none of your damn business. I see nothing but selfishness repeatedly. Like having your precious meal interrupted is the worse thing the world…oh dear what ever shall you do. No I suppose it is better that we just lock the little dears in their rooms until they are 18.

@ Jill

It seems like you want it both ways — you want kids to have the right to interact in all public spaces just like adults, but you don’t actually think they should have to adhere to the same social norms as adults in those spaces.


No, actually I want the right for my children to take up space in this world and interact because they are people. I think holding children to adult standards is ridiculous because well they are kids. It is a learning process they don’t come out of the womb “trained.” So if it means a few uncomfortable dinners or letting them have a fit every once and a while so be it. Children contribute to this world when we take the time to appreciate them. Tell me would, would you tell a disabled person to leave a restaurant because they were being to loud or making you uncomfortable? This is the same damn kind of bigotry and I for one am sick of it. People who operate at different levels have different standards of behaviour.



What do mothers think is appropriate? Well, here's a healthy dose of you're nobody till you've used those ovaries, ladies! (Transwomen, menopausal women, sterile women----you're second class if you're lucky.)

The paragraph breaks represent different people.

The problem is with adults who insist on being separated from what life is about and what makes like worthwhile.

You're nobody till you have a kid. It's what 'life is all about'.

I went to a wedding one time where people weren’t allowed to bring kids. It didn’t affect me personally, since I don’t have kids, but I thought that was hugely arrogant of the bride & groom to ask

God, how DARE they set the rules for the gathering that they were paying for! Those bastards.


Thanks for this post, although it did give a venue for the tiresome “CHILDREN MISBEHAVE IN RESTAURANTS!” justification for hating on kids.
If you don’t like “kids” or “babies,” there’s something wrong with you. Note I didn’t say “don’t want to have” or “don’t want to raise” or “aren’t interested in the minute-to-minute machinations of.” I said “don’t like.” How do you “dislike” all babies? Or all kids? WTF? That is just weird. Do you also dislike all … Albanians? Or all people with red hair? Yeah, yeah – bring it on.
Also, many hugs to maia & bfp, although I do think bfp could have had the courtesy to just pretend race doesn’t exist, to make things more comfortable for Dawn.


Frankly, comparing kids to an oppressed class is one of the most offensive things I've seen the mom bloc do, and that's saying quite a bit. Kids are not oppressed: they're developing, and it's their parents' job to ensure they learn how to behave. Black people cannot change the color of their skin, for example, though some of the mom bloc are backing off with the discrimination thing. Kids, however, can change their behavior, if their parents show them what to do.


so we have a bunch of feminists mocking children, telling parents they shouldn’t be in public, calling children *things*, saying “race nor gender matters” etc etc etc etc—AND–AND to top it all off, we’re all also OUTRAGED that a mother doesn’t call herself a feminist because–*supposedly* feminists are all about equality for little fucking girls???? You all do realize that the “it” and the cellphone and the pain in the ass and the obnoxious shit that set the woman’s hair on fire up there (ZOMG) are GIRLS, right?
Fuck feminism, fuck feminists and fuck their obnoxious entitled bullshit attitudes. And fuck all of you who think you did a goddamn thing for my daughter. MOTHERS did that, not you.
Mamis, mommies, mothers, M/others–NOT YOU.


Yeah. Mommies did it all. Not feminists.


Another good one, which tells you right where you are in Mama world:

“I also find it quite interesting that most “kid haters” define their right to a kid free space but refuse to recognize their ability to leave said space. If they dislike kids, stay home. Order in. Hire someone to do your shopping for you.” – Jesse

It's really hard to buy into notions of oppression when sentiments like this are approved of and endorsed. For that matter, given the demonization of childfree people that goes on in so-called feminist spaces---in favor of the notion that a woman's ovaries make her a true woman-----I'm finding it more and more hard to believe that these moms who talk about 'sending warm energy' to the screaming kid ever have encounters with the nasty mean feminazi who's jus jellus her dried up old ovaries can't demonstrate the juicy, life-giving, life-affirming, womanly, lush, what-the-fuck ever, Goddess this, wymyn that total womanhood that these blessed creatures can.

I'm sick of this Mists of Avalon/motherhood bullshit. If you decide that women matter only if they have kids, then you're telling a a whole bunch of women that their choices are wrong, and yours are the only true ones, instead of, you know, making room for all. And did you know analyzing society's views of motherhood is totally slapping moms in the face???!!! Totally. Furthermore, you cannot look at motherhood unless you're a mom. End of subject.

The mythical bitch feminazi who bedevils these women is starting to seem an awful lot like that horrible feminazi who refuses to let men hold the door for her.

Comments

( 124 comments — Leave a comment )
kittenmommy
Mar. 2nd, 2012 06:26 pm (UTC)

Imagine what their children must be like.

No, wait, I don't have to imagine it. I see their children every day. They're the ones throwing silverware in the restaurant, the ones who run up and down the movie theater aisles screaming, the ones who... well, you get the idea.
ginmar
Mar. 2nd, 2012 06:42 pm (UTC)
But don't you know? Childfree people are making all that shit up.
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lucretiasheart
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:13 pm (UTC)
As someone who has worked retail during my youth and then more recently, I can tell you that people in service jobs have PLENTY to say about parents who let their children run amok, and either don't care (neglectful) or have some warm, fuzzy weird philosophy that requires them to not discipline their kid.

I used to have to put up with it most of the time working in a store. You simply can't chastise a precious customer or tell them to please leave. Now as a regular customer, I take great delight in opening my mouth and saying what every other customer is thinking: "You ought to be ashamed of your child's behavior." Its one thing for a kid have a couple of silliness out of hand now and again, or even to have a meltdown. But responsible parents quickly correct behavior that gets over the top and REMOVE a child from public that is melting down. That's what my parents did. That's what MOST parents did, once upon a time. Kids were NOT allowed to dominate public spaces like they do now. It was unheard of...

However, even as a customer service worker, there were times when some child (or group of children) were SO outrageous that the entire store banded together to oust the customer with their "monsters." (Badly behaved children were never called 'kids' by us.) When we had a sympathetic manager, he would take care of it. Or, when the manager was out, we'd make an announcement over the P.A. guaranteed to completely embarrass the mom who had a crazy monster racing up and down the aisles of a store, knocking over glassware and endangering themselves as well as other customers.

There were times when a group of us would team up and, when we knew our manager wouldn't back us up, pretend to be the manager and kick a customer out. Only in the most dire of circumstances, mind you, after we'd tried to respectfully ASK first and found ourselves blown off by Breezy Mom who Couldn't Be Bothered.

Other times, one or more of us would confront a child alone in an aisle and threaten them within an inch of their lives, and then leave the store to go to lunch, so when the kid tattled to their parent, their story wouldn't hold up. Everyone would deny that anyone matching the description was working that day, while acting like the kid was lying-- or even pretending it could have been a Stranger.

Whatever it took, when it got totally out of hand, whole teams of people would conspire to do whatever we had to to find relief from the little holy terrors. But we NEVER blamed the kids. It was their parents we hated. Whether because they were TOO invested in their kids, or not invested enough, extremes of parenting produce horribly behaving human beings.
ginmar
Mar. 2nd, 2012 07:23 pm (UTC)
But...but...but Moms just can't abide by your unreasonable standards! Kills will be kids!

"Kids will be kids." Why does that sound familiar? And chilling?
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salzara_tirwen
Mar. 2nd, 2012 08:02 pm (UTC)
What the heck are "M/others"? I thought the SJ people were all about NOT "Othering" people? So confused....
journalfag
Mar. 2nd, 2012 08:18 pm (UTC)
Oh bullshit. I'M a mom and sorry, when your kid is acting up you take her/him the fuck outside. You calm the child the fuck outside.

My daughter is now 18 years old, and I can probably count 3 times she ever acted up in public. I can assure you the tantrum was very, very short.

I also spanked her butt. Yup. I spanked my daughter. She's a well rounded, happy, healthy, intelligent feminist little smart ass, who's creative and also- POLITE.

She doesn't fear me.


She doesn't mind me out of fear.

She's not (insert every ridiculous thing poor poor spanked kids are supposed to suffer)at all.

She doesn't drink or do drugs or associate with people who do.

She isn't defiant, sulky or moody.

She's a straight A student, and is going to college. Looking forward to it, matter of fact.

At 18 she has her shit together, and yes, that's MY doing as I raised her alone.

She's loved and cherished. She's not fucking oppressed because she's a child. Indian? Yes. Female? yes.

And equating child "oppression" with racism gets right up my WOC nose.
ginmar
Mar. 2nd, 2012 08:42 pm (UTC)
I wonder if these mothers actually tell their kids some of this shit...."That mean person hates you because you're young and cute, precious." Or else, you're being discriminated against because you're a child."
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realinterrobang
Mar. 2nd, 2012 08:43 pm (UTC)
I don't like kids for the same reason I don't like misogynists, assholes, or arrogant entitled shitbags -- the way they act. I really don't like being around a screaming kid, sorry.

Despite gross mischaracterizations of some of the things I've said elsewhere, I don't think kids should be kept in their locked rooms until age 18, or kept out of public places, but on the other hand, I think there are (and ought to be) such things as adult-only spaces, which means you don't bring your baby, you don't bring your bratty four year old, and you send your tweenager off to her friend's house for a sleepover when you want to go to those kinds of places. Further, I reserve the right to think you're a complete and total boor if you bring your spawn into an adult-only space.

Which isn't, by the way, the grocery store. I'm talking about bars, sit-down restaurants (the type with, you know, real tablecloths and a quiet atmosphere), late showings of films geared towards adults (please do not bring your toddler to the midnight Rocky Horror Picture Show), bars, certain types of upscale social clubs, and so on. If you want to teach your kid how to behave in a restaurant, there are plenty of fast food places, kid-friendly "family restaurants," local pizza joints, and whatever to do that without having to bring your kid to Bibendum or something. Oddly enough, I frequent a family-owned Chinese restaurant where the owners' relatives often bring their small children to eat, usually a big group of them with several kids at once, and I've never found them to be noisy, disruptive, or even behaving inappropriately for the venue...because, funnily enough, the parents (and relatives) do their fucking jobs and have high (and well- and consistently-reinforced) expectations of the kids. Strange how that works, isn't it?

Hell, when I was little, I can actually remember my mother hosting adult parties in our own house and being forbidden to come in the areas of the house where the adults were having their party, because (specifically) "this is for grown-ups." And I was the kind of kid you could take practically anywhere, because I was mature for my age, very bright, and generally quiet and well-behaved. (A mobility impairment also meant that I didn't run all over the place.)

I totally don't have a problem with that, in retrospect.

Damn, why don't the breeders of the world just kick us some more when we're down?
ginmar
Mar. 2nd, 2012 11:28 pm (UTC)
"Just stay in. Order in." That's what the childfree are supposed to do so the brats can run wild.

Oh,a nd to the precious mommies out there, all of what you just said are lies, because that's what the child free do.

Did you see the comment where somebody had the fucking gall to bitch about the bride and groom setting an age limit for their own wedding?!
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idemandjustice
Mar. 2nd, 2012 08:55 pm (UTC)
I can't stand other people's kids. I admit it. I've frequently thought about making a community like childfree, but for parents to complain about other parents doing a shitty job.

I have read articles, and agreed with them, indicating that when a child is having an all-out tantrum, that the only thing that can be done is to wait it out. But that obviously would be dependent on the time and place. I was afraid to even go out anywhere until Charlotte was four months old or so. She was having her "witching hour" which means inconsolable screaming, from around 6-9pm almost every night. I wasn't going to subject anyone else to that. And when we do go to restaurants, I really want to snarl at kids who are running around. I don't let mine do that. If Simon won't sit still, we'll strap him into a high chair, dammit.

Here's an entry I wrote a little while ago that illustrates why I hate other people's kids: http://idemandjustice.livejournal.com/1092164.html
kittenmommy
Mar. 2nd, 2012 09:41 pm (UTC)

"Access is denied". :p
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witch_wolf
Mar. 2nd, 2012 09:20 pm (UTC)
They are at it again? The Feminist Mommies who are upset that their screaming brats can't piss and shit on you in a public place. The ones that think it's perfectly okay to take their children into nightclubs and bars to watch adults get hammered and act in other adult way, then get pissed at the other customers for acting in an adult way. Then moan and groan about how well behaved they are when they aren't.

I supported their choice to procreate but that doesn't mean that I have to like, love, want, have, or be around them.
kittenmommy
Mar. 2nd, 2012 09:40 pm (UTC)

I'm thinking of that one "Mama" who wanted people to send "love and good vibes to the baby and Mama" when they were in the "difficult" situation of being in a bar in the middle of the night.

Right?
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keori
Mar. 2nd, 2012 09:52 pm (UTC)
Funny you should write this today. I just got off a miserable 45 minutes on the subway next to a screaming toddler demanding it be breastfed RIGHT FUCKING NOW, yelling, "I want the woobie!" and pulling on its (I assume) mother's shirt. After 20 minutes, she gave in, pulled out her breast in the middle of the train, and shoved it in the screaming toddler's mouth.

Hey lady. If your sproggen is old enough to be in pullups, have teeth, and ASK FOR THE TEAT IN FULL, COMPLETE SENTENCES, it just might be time to switch to sippy cups, and also impress upon your offspring that screaming tantrums in the middle of the train are not acceptable behavior, and to KNOCK THAT SHIT OFF.

Your children are not cute or adorable or fascinating to me. They are not prodigious little miracles. They are screaming demonic meatsacks until they develop enough of an intellect to have a reasonable conversation about something interesting and relevant, like why it's important to recycle, or how cool the lions at the zoo were.

Jesus wept, I raised a child not even mine from the time he was 8 months until almost 4 years old BY MYSELF. I did not take him out in public to places he did not belong. I nipped shit in the bud as soon as it started. He's now 12, and he's NEVER acted like the little shitstains described herein. Probably because I didn't put a crown on his head and treat him like the center of the goddam universe. I wasn't his BFF. I was his fucking PARENT, the only one he knew. I taught him that "no means NO" and how to act nicely in public, to say please and thank you, and that throwing a fit will result in a swift smack on the ass and being put in the car until he could finish and get his shit together. I also taught him that he was loved and cherished beyond all reason.
ginmar
Mar. 2nd, 2012 11:37 pm (UTC)
But putting her foot down would require putting her foot down. That's work.
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ceebeegee
Mar. 2nd, 2012 10:29 pm (UTC)
I'm working my way trough that post but had to stop to laud this comment (on the original letter):

I bet you spank it to [the sexist values on display in] Mad Men, don’t you, you retrograde jackhole.
ginmar
Mar. 2nd, 2012 11:25 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I had some asshole comment on my comment by saying that my example was a lovely example of the good old days----you know, how the moms on the block kept an eye on each other's kids and didn't fear to grab an ear and drag us off to mom---I'm sure Snowflake took that absolutely literally so she could feel more superior-----or give a kid a smack themselves. Because, you know, that's child abuse.
coquinespike
Mar. 3rd, 2012 12:56 am (UTC)
"Stay home?" "Order In??" THAT'S WHAT YOU DO WHEN YOU HAVE THE KIDS ASSHOLE!!! Aaaarrrrrgggghhhh WTF is wrong with you?!?!?
kittenmommy
Mar. 3rd, 2012 02:59 am (UTC)

Those same people would probably demand to be able to bring their kids to your house and eat your take-out while their kids run around screaming, breaking things, and terrorizing your pets.

Because there should never be any kind of adult only space anywhere in the entire world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mirandaflynn
Mar. 3rd, 2012 01:37 am (UTC)
I console myself with the fact that they'll probably be spending a lot of time in Juvenile (and later adult) court, wondering WHAT WENT WRONG?
ginmar
Mar. 3rd, 2012 02:23 am (UTC)
Nothing went wrong! People just don't understand how special and precious their baby truly is! It's all somebody else's fault.
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violaswamp
Mar. 3rd, 2012 03:37 am (UTC)
Feministe is nuts. You know, I think a lot of people over-complain about kids not behaving like prim old people in public, and I think hitting kids is abuse (yes, even if you call it "spanking"). But I never heard anyone railing against basic notions of teaching your children to be considerate of others and keeping them in child-appropriate places until I read that old "Mama" thread on Feministe.

And this is just more of the same. Ugh. First Schwyzer, then the nonsensical prostitution-in-ancient-Rome-was-so-great post, and now this. I think I'm going to stop visiting that site.
ms_daisy_cutter
Mar. 5th, 2012 11:49 pm (UTC)
Feministe is nuts.

OMG, how ableist.

... but, yeah. Feministe and certain other blogs (*cough* Hoyden *cough*) really draw the special snowflakes out. In droves. And then Feministe goes the extra mile. Sad thing is that Hugo isn't the only special predator they've featured. Remember the guest blogger who thought it was funny that her BFF pressured a virginal male Christian into sex?
violaswamp
Mar. 3rd, 2012 03:44 am (UTC)
Also, Albanians and people with red hair aren't biologically less mature and culturally less knowledgeable than everyone else.

Kids are. Hell, that's why we have special laws protecting them from abuse and exploitation.
realinterrobang
Mar. 3rd, 2012 04:59 am (UTC)
I know a red-haired Albanian glibertarian...does that count?

I also disagree with you that spanking a kid is either "hitting" or "abuse." I'm not sure how you deal with a kid who's below the age of reason without occasionally giving them a tap on the rump through the diaper, though, but I don't know much about kids, save that the way my dad abused me when I was a teenager was entirely hands-off.
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pitbullgirl65
Mar. 3rd, 2012 03:13 pm (UTC)
"Just stay in. Order in."
There was some nasty comment on their mocking people getting upset because their night out was ruined. Does it occur to them that for many of us, going out to eat is a special treat, even at a cheap resterant? Or that shock! maybe some of the people who are giving you the evil eye for not controlling your offspring are parents who have paid a baby sitter so that they can enjoy a childfree night out?
And to the person throwing a hissy fit over the no kids allowed wedding party: it's their party number one. Number two: how many of you liked going to weddings as a kid? How many kids do you know who enjoy it? I remember hating being in weddings and would have rather stayed home and played.
ginmar
Mar. 3rd, 2012 03:21 pm (UTC)
Just stay in. Order in
I remember all the stuff I hated as a kid, and weddings were right up there. Hell, I still hate some of that stuff. If adults don't like it, do you think kids will?
Re: Just stay in. Order in - pitbullgirl65 - Mar. 3rd, 2012 06:09 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: "Just stay in. Order in." - amethyst_hunter - Mar. 3rd, 2012 06:44 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: "Just stay in. Order in." - happiestsadist - Mar. 4th, 2012 12:05 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: "Just stay in. Order in." - ms_daisy_cutter - Mar. 5th, 2012 11:53 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: "Just stay in. Order in." - happiestsadist - Mar. 6th, 2012 12:11 am (UTC) - Expand
Re:Just stay in. Order in - ginmar - Mar. 6th, 2012 12:29 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Just stay in. Order in - happiestsadist - Mar. 6th, 2012 12:31 am (UTC) - Expand
joycemocha
Mar. 3rd, 2012 05:40 pm (UTC)
I'm a mother, and I don't endorse these ideas.

Um. Wait. My kid is grown up. Obviously I'm from a previous generation, and my opinion doesn't count.

Kids need to be properly socialized, and part of the socialization is that they do not get to run wild and trash everything in sight. Also, if you set the standards for appropriate behavior in childhood, then when they enter the middle school crazy synapse-pruning developmental stage where they aren't capable of anything but black and white logic, it's an easier time for you and everyone else.
pitbullgirl65
Mar. 3rd, 2012 06:05 pm (UTC)
Kids need to be properly socialized, and part of the socialization is that they do not get to run wild and trash everything in sight
Totally agreed and I just want to add: Sometimes I've seen kids have a total meltdown because they're hungry, exhasted, over similated, etc. I don't get these parents who insist on dragging their kids out at night when they should be tucked in bed. I feel bad for the kids for having such selfish parents.
It reminds me of this idiot on Feministe who toted her three year old(!) out to bars until the wee hours and even refered to her as a "badass". Dear Maude...
(no subject) - joycemocha - Mar. 3rd, 2012 06:39 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - kittenmommy - Mar. 3rd, 2012 11:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
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