From Finally, Feminism 101, a Blog: A hapless whiner named Joeedh wants to throw himself a pity party in the comments about why it's stupid to tell women to take precautions to avoid getting raped.
But first!
When a dude starts out like this and subsequently claims he's an ally, yeah.....I don't know why, I can't quite put my finger on it, I'm a little....skeptical. Is that the word?
Here's his VERY FIRST comment, a tender statement of sensitivity and appreciation for what women go through:
Wow this is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. The word “street smarts” come to mind; it’s like saying you shouldn’t be careful of muggers walking through the bad part of town at night, because “such an attitude makes *you* the victim, not the mugger.”
Just because a certain group of people take the sick viewpoint that it’s the victim’s fault (for whatever reason), doesn’t mean you should not teach women basic street smarts (and, depending on where they live, at the very least carry around pepper spray).
It has nothing to do with sexuality, and frankly it’s not a womens issue exclusively (plenty of men are sexually assaulted, usually by other men I admit). There are always criminals in any area; learning to avoid them is an important skill.
Don’t be ridiculous. Saying that men always say things like “well, you should have done this. . .” is offensive. I resent it. And you can’t just shove off all responsibility to men. You have to take responsibility too, and not blame every man alive for the action of one.
Because whatever you think is wrong, bitch, and you better not offend men, dammit! And while you're dealing with oppression, you better make sure you remember to kiss male butt!
Also, I know better than you what's happened to you, so shut up already.
And just because someone had a bad experience doesn’t give them the license to mess up every other woman’s life up. Blaming all men for the actions of criminals is just a way to avoid taking responsibility for protecting yourself; women are just as capable of learning to protect themselves as men. Claiming that this simple concept somehow paints a woman as “responsible” for her own rape is stupid. Anyone who says so is an asshole, but I’ll bet that as many women have made that comment as men.
Guys, can you give me a hand here? There's so much wrong here, I don't know where to start. It's the assumption that if you have this viewpoint, you must have been driven crazy by a bad experience; it's the separation of 'men' from 'criminals', it's the idea that women have a 'responsibility' to prevent rape, but men have a responsibility to do absolutely nothing. Oh, and betcha women are just as bad as men! Neener neener neener, bitches!
There is a clear difference between learning first aid and criticizing someone performing it. It’s the same basic principle here. No one is implying that it’s all your fault because you didn’t follow all the little safety rules; we’re adults, not young children.
And I am The Emperor of All I Survey so shut the fuck up and listen to what I say, bitch.
You know, I was trying to be rational and open-minded. I pretty much admitted that you were right, but your own emotional reaction was to attack me. I certainly wasn’t trying to compete in the helpless factor (did I mention I’m disabled?), I was trying to be empathetic. I honestly didn’t know the full story, and while I think there are generic safety advice that applies to everyone, paranoid advice directed at women is far more damaging then good.
You still seem to blame men quite a bit in your posts. The truth is that many people are confused by this because they have no personal experience with the consequences, not because they are bad people.
I don't know about you, dear reader, whoever you are, but when some dude starts out by saying, "I was TRYING to be nice, to be RATIONAL," or whatever, it always makes me wonder...."So what's the second half of that sentence look like?" Because it sounds like a setup for a threat, wherein he explains why he went ballistic and it was those crazy bitches who made him do it. And not only that, let's just discuss that unquestioned 'crazy bitch' phallacy, too, because we all know where that comes from, right? The ancient Greeks believed that womens' uterii drove us bananas because unless they were filled with babies we were nuts. Closely related to 'she can't be in charge of the world, she might have PMS.'
Also, I have to give this asshole points for claiming that when he hosted his pity party for one, he was trying to trying to empathetic. I'm not going to look, but I think this is the guy who ALSO claimed he was gay, so he can't be sexist and in fact MUST be allowed entrance to the feminist clubhouse. That one never gets old. Just because you feel oppressed, dewd, does not mean you're not oppressing us at the same time, if you don't question those same old sexist theories you don't in fact question.
What do you know of me? I bet that there’s one thing you can do that I can: work. Most likely, you can support yourself, while I cannot. Tell me, how am I more privileged then you? How exactly are you “lesser” then me? You are capable of supporting yourself; that’s something I’ve often dreamed off and spend years trying to achieve.
I am fundamentally lesser then other people. I am completely disabled, but look absolutely normal. I can’t work, I’m constantly dizzy, I’m in pain all the time, just getting to sleep is often some of the worse pain I’ve ever felt, it’s hard to move, and people constantly give me crap because they won’t believe I’m disabled. I’ve seen doctors, gone to the ER on several occasions, none of whom have ever taken me seriously because I look so absolutely normal.
You want to talk about prejudices? Do you realize how much you judge someone based on their appearance? What about the many people like me, who are judged to be lazy and are often punished for trying to succeed in life, since anyone who’s that sick should stay home and rest? Or the equally common version, anyone whose that sick for that long must be doing something wrong and it’s their own fault?
So don’t whine about how much “lesser” you are. Or how “hard” your life is. I guarantee that my life is far worse then yours.
So...what does this have to do with women, rape victims, and how sexist it is to shove off rape eradication on them? Oh, yeah, bitches, you don't get rights to complain unless you have more problems than Sir Wimpy here, who has deprived of servants and respect by his problems, and blames women for it. Also, bitches, you thought you had a right to your own opinions? I think not, sir!
In my experience, there are many people (men and women) who do not possess very good street smarts. It’s also stupid to take the attitude that “let’s focus on the people who do the raping”, when that assumes that people don’t already do that.
When somebody switches from the experiences of women to the general, by the way, that's known as minimization, because it implies that everybody has problems, bitches, just take your place in line, you lazy ass whiners. I DO love, love, love how he just knows based on his personal experience that people already focus on the rapist already. I get the impression he thinks that's a little bit too much as it is. Women are complaining, when they should be listening to HIM!
Seriously, just read the thread. This guy is a compendium of every Fail that every fail!troll has ever posted to every feminist thread everywhere, and he absolutely will not take a look in the mirror.
If only you stupid women were smart enough, sensitive enough, to appreciate the efforts that our saintly Internet Jesus here has taken the time amidst all his suffering to impart to you! He's suffering, you all! His pain makes what he has to say SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than anything a pain-free woman might have to offer, because you know bitches are just hysterical and like to make shit up.
I do like it, too, how a gay guy who presumably doesn't want to fuck women stil feels like he's owed obedience, respectful silence, and awed appreciation from women. No, no, no, dude, seriously; that's not privileged at all. No, really. Now tell me all about that time in fourth grade where some girl gave you a wedgie.
And it all comes down to this: [info]joeedh (24.10.97.83) wrote:
Dec. 28th, 2009 10:50 pm (local)
Weren't you accusing *me* of saying that exact sentence to *you* earlier?
See, this is the problem when your ideology is defined by hate. You are doomed to commit the crimes you percieve from others yourself.
Ugh I've run out of ways to curse you bitches. Hrm. This is a hard one. I guess I could wish you would all die, but that's rather pathetic. I could wish sterility on you ginmar, but it's possible that's already the case. I make make fun of that. . .hrm. I could make fun of how you twist everything I say as an attack on women. It's clear proof of a deranged mind.
Maybe I'll just say that you deserve everything that has happened to you. Hrm. Actually, I wonder how strict is the military over vet's behaviours, would be nice if I could get them to cut you off over this. I'm not going to let you get away with this abuse. Or the rest of your followers, but they can wait, and honestly I figure just getting one or two of you will be punishment enough for the rest of them.
But I didn't spot the warning signs or anything, and I'm too hard on guys like this, and I deserve to be punished.
Page Summary
tebewilderness : (no subject) [+1] - erbie : (no subject) [+6]
- greeneyedkzin : (no subject) [+0]
- gehayi : Part 1 [+12]
- gehayi : Part 2 [+15]
- sophiaserpentia : (no subject) [+3]
- miz_evolution : (no subject) [+12]
- laughingrat : (no subject) [+6]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+1]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+6]
- greeneyedkzin : (no subject) [+14]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+7]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+21]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+9]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+1]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+6]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+19]
- greeneyedkzin : (no subject) [+0]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+10]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+1]
- tebewilderness : (no subject) [+0]
- joeedh : (no subject) [+1]
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Comments
Everyone know that being raped and murdered is a bad experience for them and it doesn't matter what men do because women do it tooooo. And it's offensive to poor booby.
Learning first aid in order to avoid being raped and murdered is no different from practicing rape and murder. (Or maybe I got that one wrong.)
Everyone knows that 97% of perps are men but rational people don't hold it against them because yanno, open minded and empathetic is a good thing.
An interlude for the hierarchy of suffering. So long as there is one man suffering any inconvenience all women must shut up about all their rapes and murders to properly attend to his needs.
My experience trumps reality, so society is stupid to incarcerate criminals when they ought to be incarcerating victims. So obvious.
He seems to have covered it all. Perhaps he should be submitted to trollbusters for an award of some trollhouse cookies.
*headdesk*
Has anyone ever gotten answers to the following questions:
Who gave these bozos the idea they could try this shit and, better yet, get away with it?
Who told them they were smart?
And how in hell they think they make sense and have a right to be expected on their own absurd terms?
These people annoy me.
***
It’s also stupid to take the attitude that “let’s focus on the people who do the raping”, when that assumes that people don’t already do that.
Well, actually, Joeedh, people don't.
Society's emphasis is on what WOMEN should do. Don't wear anything short or feminine, because that could provoke men to rape; after all, it's not as if anyone from babies to disabled grandmothers can be raped...and has been. Don't go out late. Don't go out early. Stay out of parking garages, because they're dangerous. In fact, stay away from anything dark. Avoid parties, especially big ones. Never, ever accept a drink from a man, especially a man you don't know. Let everyone know where you're going when you go out on a date, just in case he tries something. Take self-defense classes. Carry a stun gun or pepper spray in your purse, even if the stun gun is considered an illegal concealed weapon in your state or if there are restrictions on the use or sale of pepper spray. Remember to wear flat shoes so that you can run more easily if you have. And know that if you are raped, you're going to be told that there was so much more that you could have done to avoid it.
One thing society does NOT do is tell men not to rape.
In Western literature, movies, songs, whatever, the man who seduces women, the love-'em-and-leave-'em guy, the one who compels women to have sex under dubious circumstances and then convinces them that they like it is, as a rule, the hero. The hero has power, you see, and one of the things that heroes generally have power over is women. The unwritten assumption of Western society is that not only are going to have sex with women who are willing, but that they will take sex from women who aren't. This generally gets brushed off with four simple words: "Boys will be boys."
And yes, rape is a matter of power and not of sex. But since much of society is perfectly fine with the notion of men having power over women, that's not something that society focuses on. Instead, there are jokes about rape that aren't really jokes and that are mostly about passing the buck. You've heard those "jokes"--about lying bitches who were plenty willing and then started screaming rape. Or they're out to get a guy, and they lie to the police or to judges or to employers, falsely claiming rape. (Because a rape trial is so much fun to go through.) Nor is it just men who tell such hostile jokes; I've run into young teens who--unbelievably--swore up and down that rape was just another word for rough sex. Or that rape indicated passion because the guy simply couldn't wait to have you...and that any girl should be flattered.
I'm not saying that a woman can't avoid certain situations that are hazardous. But it is not, or should not be, a woman's job to police herself and restrict her own behavior.
I remember a story I read once about Golda Meir. It seems that when she was Prime Minister of Israel, there was a serial rapist in Jerusalem, and the police could not catch this guy. One of her cabinet ministers proposed a curfew in Jerusalem until the rapist was caught. Meir agreed, with one provision--that the curfew be for men.
Her cabinet was up in arms. "Why aren't you putting the women under curfew?"
Meir's answer was simple: "The women aren't doing the raping."
She was right. Women should not be restricted and should not blamed for the actions of others. Men are the ones who need to start admitting that they are not helpless and that they do have self-control. It never seems to occur to anyone that no matter what a woman does or does not do, a man does not HAVE to rape her, and has to choose to do so.
And you know, it's strange. I've never heard a male rape victim being told in a newspaper or magazine or forum that there were so many things he could have done to prevent his assailant from raping him. I've heard a few people assume that he must have been cruising/in a gay bar/etc., and I've heard the victim respond testily that no, he wasn't. But once the victim says that he wasn't, a silence falls. If he wasn't doing anything to present himself as a sexual target to another man, then everyone is at a loss as to how he could have prevented the rape.
Makes you wonder, doesn't it, why no one is at a loss as how women can prevent the same thing. [/sarcasm]
Edited at 2009-12-27 02:03 am (UTC)
Edited at 2009-12-27 02:40 am (UTC)
Get in the ring. With me. Seven minutes.
I'd win.
and not blame every man alive for the action of one
Oh thank god, all those fathers, husbands, brothers, stepbrothers, stepfathers, bosses, co-workers, fellow students, teachers, medical practitioners, therapists, friends, boyfriends, acquaintances and occasional total strangers throughout history were all just one person. All we have to do is catch that ONE PERSON, ladies, and then we'll be safe at last! Let's take some responsibility and get that motherfucker, amirite?
So how exactly does this work? How exactly does one dude do all of this all at once everywhere? Is he like some kind of super-misogynist Santa or something? Does he have a lair? Is it at the North Pole, like Nice Santa's is? Can you write him letters? "Dear Rape-Santa, I did not make eye contact with any strange men this year, please spare me your just punishment"? Is that how it works? And, like, since rape has been going on since the beginning of the species, does that mean there is a new Rape-Santa every generation, kind of like the Slayer or something? Or is he immortal (Oo! Is he the Highlander?!), and has been raping ladies since the beginning of time? And if so, why doesn't he just get a job already?
I hope George or whatever his name is can take time away from admiring how much of an "ally" he is to mansplain the answers to these questions and, undoubtedly, many more I did not ask and do not care to. I do not know what I would do without men like Jeedho--Jody--whatever--to make the errors in my thinking known to me.
Edited at 2009-12-27 06:01 am (UTC)
Frankly, I feel you attacked my honor. I'll apologize in public, and I won't even expect you to do the same. But I'd suggest being a little less self-centered in the future. I might actually trade your experiences in iraq if it could take back all the sex I desperately didn't want to have.
Bleh. You talk about rape, but have you ever been raped? I have, both by being forced to seek sex to survive in general, and also once by a guy a couple of years ago. He was a stranger, btw.
Yet apparently my "oh it's all about me" attitude is soo immature I deserve whatever shit you dole out on me about it. Fuck off. Like you, I don't talk about my problems much. But unlike you I treat other people with problems with respect, not derision. Asshole.
That's him saying that he won't even demand an apology of me, for trampling in on mens' spaces and insulting him by----Oh, yeah. Wait. And calling me an asshole.
Frankly, I feel you attacked my honor. I'll apologize in public, and I won't even expect you to do the same. But I'd suggest being a little less self-centered in the future. I might actually trade your experiences in iraq if it could take back all the sex I desperately didn't want to have.
Bleh. You talk about rape, but have you ever been raped? I have, both by being forced to seek sex to survive in general, and also once by a guy a couple of years ago. He was a stranger, btw.
Yet apparently my "oh it's all about me" attitude is soo immature I deserve whatever shit you dole out on me about it. Fuck off. Like you, I don't talk about my problems much. But unlike you I treat other people with problems with respect, not derision. Asshole.
why? what did I do to deserve that? that was private. . .you can't just post that.
why is it all about you? god, it's always that way with people. it's all "turn off the light switch! I don't care if it's painful, why don't you care about me?" or "you offended me!!! it's simple curtesy you asshole, your lazy and worthless!" and what's scary is how little I'm exaggerating.
what the hell? I never meant to hurt anyone. ginmar, you are such an asshole. a fucking asshole and I'm reporting you to live journal. you don't deserve pity, because you are incapable of it yourself. this sucks. . .I'm never going to feel sorry for someone like you again, this is like the fifth time I've been burnt be trying to be decent and understanding.
You tried being a decent human being five whole times and no one apppppreeeeeeciated you?
Tragic.
I've seen that kind of crazy-making before. If you can't use false logic and don't have the toughness for a fight, sneak around.
Warning: Sparklepony alert.
I know that people say you shouldn't engage with feral nuts, but I don't see why you can't flame them on your own ground.
what the hell is wrong with you people? the fact that I'm male means anything that happens to me is perfectly ok, even all that? somehow treating me this way is ok, simply because I was (unintentially) an asshole?
do you all think five steps in advance? or read shadings in everything? the only ulterior motive I've had is trying to sound reasonable and contrite (the latter dropped after a certain level of sheer shit), and feeling obligated to apology as a matter of honor (which I feel kindof silly about now, but I got a little twisted in my feelings there).
you know why I care so much? because when someone laughs at my problems, it says to me that it's all my fault, that everything I desperately fought so hard against was my fault, all of it. the same thing the original blog was talking about, btw, even if I didn't make the connection for a while.
assholes.
I should sue you over this. I could probably get away with hate speech or harming the disabled or whatever. I don't need shit from people like you that raises my stress and pain levels. I'll probably settle for getting your account banned though, that'll have to be enough.
Now stop and think. Seriously. Did you do anything a teensy weensy bit wrong there? Maybe? Just a wee bit? Ya think?
the world doesn't work that way, ginmar.
WHERE do you get away with that, or do you simply hope to?
Pity? Settle for respect. Get it by earning it.
Kid, you've made a BAD start.
ugh!
you know, maybe it's because I'm ADD and I can be mad and sympathetic at the same time. sounds odd? deal with it bitch, that's just the way I am, I've always been that way. don't believe I've been acting that way? why don't you read over what I've been writing, without your pathetic, deranged bias?
bleh.
Can I, can I?
Wow, he keeps adding to the list. Ick.
quote:
"""
I should be clear that I’m not implying that men are super-capable of protecting themselves; if I was that would make the above comment rather offensive. My point is that failure to protect oneself can happen to both genders (with respect to crime in general, not rape in specific).
"""
That one was in reply to the post where I accidentally implied it was women's fault. There. Bleh, did you even bother to show that one ginmar?
Yes, I saw that one. However, you missed the point. The very title of the discussion was "FAQ: What’s wrong with suggesting that women take precautions to prevent being raped?"
You changed the subject. You wanted to talk about why both genders SHOULD take precautions and SHOULD protect themselves to prevent being raped. The topic was about underlying assumptions:
1) that a rapist has no ability to control his own actions.
2) that a rape victim can control a rapist's actions and can prevent her rape if she says or does the right thing.
3) that telling a rape victim what she should have done after she has been raped is another way of saying to her, "You were in control. You could have prevented this." Blaming the victim, in other words.
4) that telling a rape victim that she could have protected herself is another way of saying that she didn't try to protect herself, even if she did. Implicit in the statement is the assumption that of course she didn't try to protect herself, because if she had, she wouldn't have been raped.
5) that telling a potential rape victim that she CAN prevent a rape if she says the right thing, does the right thing, protects herself fiercely enough encourages a false sense of security, allowing her to think that she can't be raped. False senses of security are dangerous.
These are just some of the problems implicit in saying that women can prevent rape. You did not have to say overtly that women were to blame. You said that both genders could fail to protect themselves from crime. Implicit in this statement is the notion that a) the victims of crime can prevent crime and b) if a crime occurs, then the victim failed to protect herself (or himself) and prevent it.
Which is, indeed, blaming the victim...whether you intended to do so or not.
It's a common attitude in our society--that there are not only solutions to every problem, but simple solutions. And if the problem persists, then someone somewhere isn't doing what's needed to fix the problem. It's easier to say to the victims, "You should have done X, Y and Z to prevent this," because that gives the illusion that something is being done about the problem, rather than admitting that the sources of the problem are rapists and a society that insists on thinking of rape (especially the rape of women; the rape of men is generally assumed to be horrifyingly traumatic) as no big deal.
Finally, cease the ad hominem attacks. Calling women "fucking assholes" for daring to disagree with you does not convince us that you are, in any way, an ally.
maybe some of you have and you blame all men for it? so even those of us men who were victims are still evil and responsible for what happens to women? do you not see what this logic is?
You have repeatedly asked what is wrong with us. I will tell you. We do not suffer fools. That is considered wrong in women.
The feminist 101 blog you were on is designed to help men, who want to be helped, figure out how to interact with the other half of the population without acting the fool. It is not for people like you, joe, who are incapable of speaking about anyone or anything but yourself. It can't help you. Neither can we.
I mean, honestly your complaining about me being self-centered because of *sexual abuse*? am I seriously hearing this?
YOU! HOLE! DIGGING! STOP!