ginmar ([info]ginmar) wrote,
@ 2008-05-12 12:41:00
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Entry tags:assholes, trolls

How to spot a nice guy
There's a mammoth thread over at Shakesville right now that features the lamest bunch of losers you could imagine----whiny white boys who took offense at a discussion of sexism on a feminist blog of al things! My God, the horror! Why, white guys suffer, too, you know! The thread is nine hundred comments long, and it's like a bingo palooze, featuring the guy I linked to last night and dozens of other dudes, calling women cunts, telling us to go get laid, and being twitchy and paranoid. They share a complete inability to actually listen to what women say, leaping to conclusions and filling in sentences with whatever they need to suit their purposes. This last is a classic trollism, because trolls and some men like to ignore what women say in favor of what they'd like women to say. (When you put words into a woman's mouth, what you're doing is the same tactic that 'no means yes' apologists are doing. Of course, clueless assholes like to say that being called on racist, sexist, homophobic dogwhistles amount to putting words in their mouths, but that's bullshit. "Welfare queen" is not a phrase that indicates a royalist revolution, asshole.)

Here, for your amusement, I bring you the classic Nice Guy.

Women- please read this short true story from my life.
1. "Now gather round and listen to the story of a man named Jed..." Oh, sorry. He only wants female attention, see that? Get lost, men.

I had a very good friend growing up.
2. I DO TOO have female friends! She used to call me the nicest guy she ever met. She was very quiet but friendly. I too was a quiet and friendly guy... not without my flaws but certainly not offensive in any way. 3. I was a NICE guy! Who better than to call them than myself?! Well as it so happened, we part ways after high school, seeing each other a lot less. She decided to major in women's studies and sociology. 4. DAH DAH DUM! As time went on, our occasional phone calls and hanging out turned into more and more of her political views. I listened as any friend would, the conversations initially were interesting and nothing seemed at all unusual. After some time she seemed to start treating me differently... no longer the close and personal friend, I felt more like an outsider.5. SHE WAS TURNING INTO A FEMINAZI! Also, she wouldn't fuck me or get me beer or listen to my rants about Playstation and how I got fired for hygiene problems. I found out why when one day it came out-she said I was sexist, ignorant and uneducated. Although you might think I'm omitting an important detail, I promise you I'm not. 6. All right, Mr. Nice Guy, that totally settles it. I'll take your word for it! This all was very unwarranted. Several of our mutual friends also had similar problems and I finally decided it was enough and simply stopped talking. 7. My imaginary friends, let me show you them. I tried reason. Nothing worked. 8. Hysterical bitch. Luckily, years later, she moved near me and I got the guts to call and try to make amends. She had since graduated and moved on to other things, even got married. 9. Even though she was a ball busting bitch. She regretted how she treated me those years earlier and apologized. It was a good feeling to have that friend back.. but I'll never forget what it's like having a best friend who I grew up with call me all these names and suddenly become very hostile. 10. And it's TOTALLY TRUE! An anonytroll said it, so it MUST be true!

I only tell this story because I wonder if some of you are reacting the same way my friend did?11. You overly emotional, stupid cunts. I won't defend every guy out there, but one fact does strike me as interesting... and that is the number of "democrats" who support Hillary but will vote McCain if Obama gets the nomination. 12. TOTALLY TRUE! It's a lot different than the number of Obama supporters who will abandon ship. 13. ALSO TOTALLY TRUE!11 So what does that say about these people? 14. Well, considering they're your imaginary friends, Sparky, why don't you give us the creator's eye view? What is this? Gary Stu and his playmates? I don't know, but my guess is that to them, sex is so important of an issue to them they would rather see Hillary's short term competitor (Obama) fail than see her, and the democratic party's opponent (McCain) fail... simply because they percieve Obama's success as being directly linked to percieved misogyny. 15. Of course! It's only perceived sexism, because Einstein here doesn't see it, had a female friend once who was mean to him---wouldn't you love to get her side of it, if she existed?----and those vicious cunts would rather let Darth McSame win than untwist their panties and get over their perceived sexism.

There you have it, 'women'. He has female friends, and one of them was mean to him, graduated from college---which makes him at least ten years older than I get from this tale of woe----and now he jsut wants to help us.

God, I need more bingo cards.



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[info]flewellyn
2008-05-12 06:17 pm UTC (link)
Your fisking is brilliant. A bit of a dense read, but great stuff.

(Reply to this)


[info]mamadeb
2008-05-12 06:17 pm UTC (link)
You know. The thing that gets me is one of the most minor points on the list: that women are so sexist that if Clinton loses to Obama, they'll vote for McCain. That is,they'll be so bothered that a man beat their candidate that they'll vote for another man.

I know supporters of both sides who will not vote for the other candidate for all sorts of reasons (which is really dumb unless they live in a non-swing state, and even then each vote is a sign of support) and but it's never been because Clinton is white or Obama is a man. I do wonder a bit at the people who will vote for McCain over Clinton, but I think that's more buying the Republican line from the 90s instead of her sex. I don't know anyone who is voting for McCain instead of Obama, but that's a function of my rather pro-Obama friendslist, I think. The people I know who won't vote for Obama won't vote for anyone or will vote some innocuous third party who isn't Ralph Nader.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]odanu
2008-05-13 11:23 am UTC (link)
Frankly I can't imagine crossing the aisle and voting for McCain should my preferred candidate (Obama) not win the nomination, nor can I imagine, after the lessons of the last two presidential elections, voting for a third party candidate or staying home. If Clinton wins the nomination, I'll throw myself into supporting her as completely as I would have Obama, because this country needs a (semi) progressive president much more than it needs to meet my personal preference.

One thing it seems like too many of us have forgotten (even me at times) is that much of the controversy between the two democratic candidates is msm spin designed to damage the Democratic party in favor of McNasty. Clinton's and Obama's positions on the issues are more similar than they are different. What's most different between them is personal style and method of leading. I prefer Obama's style of coalition building to Clinton's but that doesn't mean I don't think Clinton would make a FAR better president than McSame.

And as for the actual topic, Gin hit the nail on the head. My only nit is that there is a difference between "nice guy" or "Nice Guy (tm)" and a genuinely nice guy. The latter are an exceedingly rare breed, but they do exist.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]mamadeb
2008-05-13 02:09 pm UTC (link)
Exactly - I happen to support Clinton. She has a reputation for actually listening to people and acting on it, and I think she has the stubborness to do the incredibly difficult job ahead of her.

However, I believe that Obama is also capable of doing the job and of making the difficult decisions to start cleaning up the mess that W will have left behind. I don't envy either of them. And both are them are, indeed, more similar than they are different. (What scares me is, in order to make things right, the next president will have to do some very unpopular and politically damaging things. I think both are willing to do so, but it will not be easy.)

McCain - I just don't trust him.

As for nice guys - they absolutely do exist. Thing is, they don't make news and they don't push themselves forward, and tv shows and novels about nice guys would be seen as boring - and probably would be. So we're conditioned to want the "bad boys" and the ones fighting for power who don't really do anything.

But they're there. They're the ones who get things done because they know they have to be done, but since they're not in it for the power, they do it behind the scenes and quietly. Yes, I am speaking from experience. The men I know are far from perfect - my husband got into a big fight with his best friend yesterday - but they're real, and they are nice.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mecurtin
2008-05-12 06:18 pm UTC (link)
Holy McChrist. I'm not goin' in there, but how did they get there from that post? And are they not aware that every word out of their keyboard just supports the point of the post?

... yeah, I know. That would mean they were self-aware, in which case they wouldn't be *them*.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]ginmar
2008-05-12 06:21 pm UTC (link)
Nothing like the smell of troll whine in the morning. It's hysterical, because it's like they've got some kind of Bizarro translator that turns clear, simple statements into Hysterical Feminazi Speak.

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[info]mecurtin
2008-05-12 07:02 pm UTC (link)
I'm not even going to click on "Comments" because I'm afraid it would crash my browser due to (a) size (b) massive SUCK.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]lookingforwater
2008-05-12 06:21 pm UTC (link)
The plural of anecdote is not data.

Correlation is not causation.

Argument without evidence is irrelevant.

Photobucket

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]ginmar
2008-05-12 06:22 pm UTC (link)
Hee. I don't think he'll take that advice.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]lookingforwater
2008-05-12 06:23 pm UTC (link)
The personal anecdote = reliable source is a pet peeve.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 06:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lookingforwater, 2008-05-12 06:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 06:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib.
[info]lordsuperfast
2008-05-12 07:57 pm UTC (link)
The plural of anecdote is not data.
This depends on whether you collect your anecdotes in a rigorous and controlled way in order to protect against selection biases. I'd love to see an example of this on the web. Even in the sociology journals you do worry about accounting for bias.

Correlation is not causation.
It does, however, make for fun data mining. Further, whilst correlation does not prove causation, an absence of correlation does prove an absence of causation, [provided other factors have been controlled for].

Argument without evidence is irrelevant.
Being less important than argument with evidence does not make something irrelevant. Apart from anything else, such an argument could [should?] be used to construct a hypothesis that could be tested. How else do you decide what evidence you need to collect, and under what conditions? You have to decide which questions to ask first, and this often starts with an argument without evidence.

Unfortunately, many people are content to live with the comfort of their delusions, rather than using rigorous methods to challenge them.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Way to miss the point
[info]ginmar
2008-05-12 07:58 pm UTC (link)
Dude, I really hate anal people on Mondays. You're it today.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]lookingforwater, 2008-05-12 08:08 pm UTC (Expand)
He's made one comment: that's usually not enough - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 08:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: He's made one comment: that's usually not enough - [info]lookingforwater, 2008-05-12 08:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: He's made one comment: that's usually not enough - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 08:18 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib.
[info]lookingforwater
2008-05-12 08:21 pm UTC (link)
Mmm, yes, because there's not the slightest possibility I could have known this, and chosen to assume my audience was also aware of the various exceptions and corollaries and such.

Photobucket

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 08:26 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 08:26 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]lookingforwater, 2008-05-12 08:28 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 08:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]rantinan, 2008-05-12 10:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]lordsuperfast, 2008-05-12 11:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]lookingforwater, 2008-05-14 12:23 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]nimbrethil, 2008-05-13 04:53 am UTC (Expand)
Why this was really annoying and uncalled for
[info]idemandjustice
2008-05-13 12:37 am UTC (link)
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-solnit13apr13,0,526991.story

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Why this was really annoying and uncalled for - [info]lordsuperfast, 2008-05-13 06:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-13 06:45 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib.
[info]nimbrethil
2008-05-13 04:52 am UTC (link)
Dude, I can run with the best of 'em when it comes to being anal, but what the fuck was the point of this?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Just because I sometimes find glib statements, well, annoyingly glib. - [info]lookingforwater, 2008-05-14 12:24 am UTC (Expand)

[info]emilyzilch
2008-05-12 06:23 pm UTC (link)
With their new thread system, I'm honestly having a hard time locating which thread it is... what's the topic? Disqus is being an arse to me for some reason.

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-12 06:31 pm UTC (link)
The Hillary Sexism Watch one, the one that's got almost a thousand comments on it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]emilyzilch, 2008-05-12 06:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 06:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]starwatcher307, 2008-05-12 09:25 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]amblinwiseass
2008-05-12 06:28 pm UTC (link)
I'll never forget what it's like having a best friend who I grew up with call me all these names and suddenly become very hostile.

Must not have been anything like the kind of thing that might inspire a person to look critically at himself and consider why someone's opinion of him might have changed so much. (Especially someone who'd apparently known him from childhood.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]ginmar
2008-05-12 06:31 pm UTC (link)
Well, if she'd known him from childhood, that would tend to imply he became even more of an asshole. Shocking, I know.

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(no subject) - [info]elestirne, 2008-05-12 08:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 08:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rantinan, 2008-05-12 10:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pbrim, 2008-05-12 11:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nimbrethil, 2008-05-13 05:00 am UTC (Expand)

[info]misfratz
2008-05-12 07:25 pm UTC (link)
So his argument is "I was a creepy teenager, one of my female friends called me out for being sexist, and I couldn't deal with that, so you shouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton"? Wow, how persuasive!

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-12 07:26 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, if the friend even existed, strangely enough.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]fromaway
2008-05-12 11:13 pm UTC (link)
Bah! It's not that the story is impossible (I mean, I've had people start treating me badly because of their newfound political beliefs), but -- ONE woman. ONE.

And where is he getting this idea that the Hillary Clinton supporters who are threatening to go over to McCain are doing so because of sex? The newspaper articles I've read (and Hillary Clinton's own words) suggest that these people are largely rural and small-town blue-collar whites with conservative leanings.

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-12 11:16 pm UTC (link)
From his own feverish fantasies. These guys only speak 'troll.'

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]idemandjustice
2008-05-13 12:40 am UTC (link)
I'll never forget what it's like having a best friend who I grew up with call me all these names and suddenly become very hostile.

Me neither. This is what my MALE "friends" did to me when I started learning about feminism. And if any of these guys ever call me up years later, and I sorta hope they do, it's not an apology they'll be receiving.

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-13 12:42 am UTC (link)
But that doesn't count! You're a girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrlll which means you're less than dirt.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]idemandjustice, 2008-05-13 12:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-13 12:51 am UTC (Expand)

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