ginmar ([info]ginmar) wrote,
@ 2008-05-10 12:32:00
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Entry tags:duggars, quiverful, tiny house

[info]doryllis and I ran some errands yesterday, and I actually survived. We went out to the PX to see what they had in gardening stuff---not much---and also made stops at Half Price Books and the dollar store. Ah, cheap toilet paper, yay. Their candles were not nearly as nice as the one near my house.

Today I was supposed to put out canned goods for the mailman to pick up, but I missed him. Bummer. It's a dark and sullen day with rain expected, but I have some good books to read and the girls stopped by. C gave me a violin recital with the tiniest violin I have ever seen, and K planted some pots. C practiced her violin in front of the house, and mom drove by, looking for someone to take J, the three year old boy. Nope, not me.

I was watching The Today Show yesterday when I saw the horror show that is the Duggars, the Quiverful family that has seventeen kids and counting. They are such a scam. They run seminars that talk about 'financial independance' but what they leave out is that they rely on donations and sponsorships and things like that. The girls are expected to do all the housework, and won't be going to college. The kids all have names that begin with J---after their dopey-looking dad, which as trollprincess noted, makes it seem like the kids are all the dad's work. God, if ever a guy needed a vasectomy, it's Jim Bob Duggar. When Mom announced she was pregnant again, some of the kids couldn't conceal their horror. They're probably going for an even twenty, which is just obscene in terms of ecological footprint and selfishness. The planet has more than enough people, thank you very much. Ugh. I If they were black, the outrage would be utterly stupendous. Eighteen black kids, the horror. These people could adopt, but they want to raise an army for God, and that requires their own genes.

Which brings up some interesting contrasts with the FLDS cult. In the FLDS, excess boys are competition, not valued soldiers in an army of God. It's all about raping little girls. I suppose one could say for the Duggars that they aren't killing their kids, which the FLDS appears to have done in at least some cases. Bad as the Duggars are, they aren't murdering anybody, and they started their family after both partners were adults. Rusty Yates was another one of these Quiverful sorts, but he was so cold hearted and selfish that he didn't care what it cost his wife. I have to wonder at the pillow talk in the Duggar household. Hell, I have to wonder at the sleeping arrangements. Those kids sleep in dorms without any privacy. The girls haven't had any childhood. Statistically, there's got to be two gay kids in that bunch. I wonder how many of them will rebel?

I'm reading Under the BAnner of Heaven and while I'm doing that I think I'll put Cloverfield on the computer so as to have a counterweight to all the murder and frightening freakiness in the name of raping little girls.




Here's a picture of a tiny house.



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[info]anne_jumps
2008-05-10 05:57 pm UTC (link)
I was sure Under the Banner of Heaven would give me nightmares.

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[info]catnik
2008-05-10 06:00 pm UTC (link)
It is giving me nightmares, but, damn, it's fascinating. Horrible, but fascinating. My poor coworkers are getting angry rants about polygamy.

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-10 06:18 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm reminded of that girl that defended the Kristallnacht Harry Potter RPG game and how she tried to say, hey, she was a victim, too, because she was a Mormon and....Damn. I mean, damn.

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[info]anne_jumps
2008-05-10 06:20 pm UTC (link)
It really is fascinating. I'm glad it's getting more attention in the wake of this case.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-10 06:23 pm UTC (Expand)
??
[info]jeric_synergy
2008-05-10 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Why are your coworkers are getting angry rants about polygamy??

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Re: ?? - [info]catnik, 2008-05-11 12:57 am UTC (Expand)

[info]drewbeartx
2008-05-10 05:59 pm UTC (link)
Statistically, there may be some of "teh ghey" in that family, but they'll never ever, ever admit it, if the poor kid(s) even understands what the hell they're feeling.

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[info]stardragonca
2008-05-10 06:11 pm UTC (link)
I'm guessing they will all rebel. I just hope they don't go Right.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-10 06:18 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ginmar
2008-05-10 06:19 pm UTC (link)
They're home schooled, how much education do you think they actually get? Any evolution, science, history?

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(no subject) - [info]l_l_u_w_d, 2008-05-10 09:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-10 09:48 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]katesmash
2008-05-10 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Weird. You don't live in Austin, do you?

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-10 06:35 pm UTC (link)
No, I'm in Minnesota. Why?

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-05-10 07:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-10 07:40 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]paft
2008-05-10 07:17 pm UTC (link)
I saw a documentary at the SF International Film Festival a couple years ago called MY MOTHER HAD FOURTEEN CHILDREN. It was about a Swedish family who became minor celebrities back in the 1940s for having so many children, and believe me, it was NOT a cheerful documentary. An especially telling comment from one of the now adult kids was, "I learned not to expect mothering from my mother." The woman was just always too busy with the latest infant.

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-10 07:25 pm UTC (link)
This mother breast feeds the kids for six months, then hands them off to one of the girls, who essentially never have childhoods. The boys don't appear to do any of the housework. The kids all apparently share clothes.

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(no subject) - [info]greeneyedkzin, 2008-05-10 08:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-10 09:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Psh!
[info]jeric_synergy
2008-05-10 08:24 pm UTC (link)
Fourteen? Piker. My maternal grandmother had 20, eighteen of which survived. (Starting in 1919-- my mom was numero uno.)

I have a LOT of cousins.

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Re: Psh! - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-10 10:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Psh! - [info]puglette, 2008-05-10 11:49 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]pbrim
2008-05-10 08:31 pm UTC (link)
In college there were some girls in my dorm from families of 15, 18, and 22 kids (good German Catholics back in the early 70's). Two things they all agreed on -- in families that large, mom and dad are too busy with the every day logistics of food on the table, clean clothes,etc to do any real parenting. If you have a problem with your schoolwork, or a heartache over a boy, or wake up with a bad dream, you don't go to mom and dad -- you go to a brother or sister. The other thing they agreed on is that they intended to have few to no children themselves. My roommate was the eldest of 22 kids, and had spent a couple of years between high school and college, working, helping her mom, and saving money for college. At 25 she had already spent 20 years raising babies and didn't intend to raise any more.

Actually another thing they all agreed on is that every family they knew of that size had at least one child with physical or developmental problems. Women's bodies simply weren't designed for that kind of constant outpouring of resources. It literally takes a lot out of a woman to make a baby, and it's difficult to keep turning out a quality product every year for decades. If Michelle wants to take that kind of risk with her own health, that's her affair, but it isn't fair to take that kind of risk with her children. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of them, I don't know them well enough. But it is a risk that keeps getting higher each year her aging body goes to build another child without proper time to recoup it's own resources.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-10 09:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]broceliand, 2008-05-11 12:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-11 11:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]broceliand, 2008-05-11 11:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-11 11:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]broceliand, 2008-05-11 11:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-12 12:00 am UTC (Expand)

[info]atdelphi
2008-05-10 08:37 pm UTC (link)
It should also be noted that the Duggars have tax-exemption because they run a church for themselves and another local family out of their home, which makes all their talk about living independently more annoying.

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-10 09:38 pm UTC (link)
Even creepier, then. The kids are homeschooled: how socialized are they? I mean, despite the upbringing, unless the parents believe in arranged marriages, these kids are never going to meet anybody. Then, too, I kind of doubt sex ed is in the home schooling curriculum. How do these people even know how to fuck?

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(no subject) - [info]atdelphi, 2008-05-10 09:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-10 10:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]broceliand, 2008-05-11 12:48 am UTC (Expand)

[info]greeneyedkzin
2008-05-10 08:59 pm UTC (link)
She's 41. I started perimenopause around 43. We can always hope.

You know, if people really want large, large families, I do wish that they'd take pre-existing kids in via adoption or fosterage.

I mean, stop at 4 or 6 or whatever and adopt the rest.

This is beyond ostentation, all the way to pride. And it's a hell of a weight to put on the Chil-Dren.

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[info]brianblackberry
2008-05-10 09:12 pm UTC (link)
They run seminars that talk about 'financial independance' but what they leave out is that they rely on donations and sponsorships and things like that.

I heard that they work under the idea of having no debt and complete financial independence but nothing about living or subsidizing through donations and the like, do you have a link or citation for that?

I believe he is a realtor with several properties from what I understand, I suppose one could make some real money off of that.

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-10 09:40 pm UTC (link)
There's been some mention of that; you can just google to find it. TLC built that huge house for them; advertisers provided food and shit with the stipulation that, of course, there be product placement in the show. They're not shy about showing the food brands on their TLC show---or were, if it's still on.

I doubt 'several properties' could supply enough money for a five-thousand-square foot house and supporting eighteen children, plus a non-working wife.

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(no subject) - [info]tripleransom, 2008-05-11 12:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-11 12:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]broceliand, 2008-05-11 12:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-11 01:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]brianblackberry, 2008-05-11 11:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2008-05-11 11:13 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ginmar
2008-05-10 09:46 pm UTC (link)
You also forgot they have a TV show on two different cable networks and amongst their sponsors is.....Walmart.

I saw that on the show myself. Barf.

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[info]broceliand
2008-05-11 12:43 am UTC (link)
Under the Banner of Heaven is incredible. I read it when it first came out in paperback, as I've always enjoyed the authors works on mountaineering (which I also highly recommend even if you arent a rock nut like me).

I go back and forth on the Duggars. I believe in reproductive choice, and it's certainly up to Michele Duggar how often she wants to reproduce...but I can't imagine a woman making a free choice to do this. So I wind up thinking there must have been some sort of...I dunno...pressure, brainwashing, *something* to convince her that using her uterus this way was a good idea.

I do feel badly for the children. I think it's next to impossible to really parent that many children. You can keep them clean and fed, but how much time can the parents actually spend with each individual child? Obviously I also find the "girls cant go to college, period" attitude horrifying in the extreme.

Having pretty much raised my two younger siblings after my dad died, I also think it's clear the older girls especially are being burdened with responsibilities they did *not* choose. Mom and Dad don't ask the girls "oh, we want to have another child you're going to have to take care of, is that ok with you?" before Michele gets pregnant again.

I suspect some of these girls are likely to rebel as they get out on their own, and decide not to have children at all.

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[info]erbie
2008-05-11 02:45 am UTC (link)
As others have said, those kids can't possibly get enough parental attention. I have two and I see the effects on each one when they want me and I need to tend to the other one. I can't imagine if they had to wait in line behind 17 others. What happens if one of them scrapes their knee and needs some TLC? They just can't possibly be getting the kind of parental attention that a person needs to grow up happy and well-adjusted.

I know of a few families with large numbers of kids. One with 17. Every one of them will tell you that they never got attention from their parents. Dad liked having a baby in the house and mom was a baby machine. She had to stop after 17 because the doctor told her another one would kill her. The older sisters raised the younger kids. Many of them are messed up in different ways. Prison, drugs, criminal activity, etc. The older ones never had childhoods because they were raising babies they didn't choose to have. It's just not possible for the parents to give the kids the kind of attention they need and want.

It's irresponsible in terms of ecological footprint as well.

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[info]ginmar
2008-05-11 11:28 pm UTC (link)
Everybody I've known who's come from a big family has not had one themselves because they already raised kids, without choosing the situation for themselves.

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VHEMT
[info]the_resa
2008-05-11 04:55 am UTC (link)
This comic strip sums up my feelings very well:
http://www.vhemt.org/paternalinstinct.gif

Original page:
http://www.vhemt.org/biobreed.htm#babies

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Re: VHEMT
[info]ginmar
2008-05-11 04:58 am UTC (link)
I'd adopt if I wanted kids. So much for those pro lifers; there's 400,000 kids in foster care that need permanent homes and it's not like the pro lifers are adopting them. Once the cord's cut, these shit heels couldn't care less.

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