ginmar ([info]ginmar) wrote,
@ 2007-12-02 14:01:00
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Snort
In any feminist discussion about boob jobs, the possibility that Renegade Evolution---self proclaimed not feminist---will show up and justify her professional choice to have a boob job approaches one. The central point---that we all do shit to appease the patriarchy--will be lost as people self-righteously bring up reconstruction or physical pain, all in a strenuous effort to ignore the central point that, once again, we all do shit to get along and we need to consider those choices when we make them. As if the exceptions about reconstruction aren't enough, then the sex poxes show up, whining about how the feminists are being big bad meanies for demanding that they own up to their patriarchy-pleasing ways. The point of the post is pretty clearly women who make the choice not for practical reasons, but because of a complicated interplay of patriarchy-induced reasons. Confronting those reasons is scary. It's much better to avoid the topic and bring on the self-serving justifications.

And it only took till comment 19, too! What, does she have a batphone, too? And she's not a feminist, so why does she spend so much time on feminist websites?

This is where the bullshit discussions about "I LIKE makeup! Really I do!" come up. I don't care. I don't care if you regard Spackle as an appearance improver or what. I don't care if you'd need a weed whacker to mow through the thatch on your legs, as long as you're happy with it.We all do what we have to do. Just own up to it. Examine it. Ignorance is not going to make you feel better: it's just going to make you feel more insecure. Of course, there seems to be a tendency on the part of women making the most retrograde decisions to want to preach to other women about how fucked up they are----I've lost track of the number of times I've had moms tell me I'd change my mind when I had my own-----but that could just be me. Tradition is easy to justify, and what's more traditional than selling sex and gratification on mens' terms to men? Do it with a marriage license or a gee string, it's just a matter of degree. Yes, I am cynical.

Of course, some women do things that are really difficult to justify---they actively sell out and do it not for survival but for cynical profit. My issue with the sex poz posse is really simple: they're not rebelling against anything. They're accepting the status quo, maybe glossing it up with some gesture of rebellion---grrrl power, rah rah rah!----and leaving unquestioned the rules that keep women down. Those rules, however, make it really easy to figure out what's profitable and what's not. It's easy to go along with what the culture wants. It's easy to sell the patriarchy what it wants. That you tend to find lots of sex pozes denying the horrid existance of ordinary prostitutes while touting how much they love their work doesn't do much to endear them to women who actually work to end prostitution. It puts me in mind of the guys who pop up in discussions about domestic violence to whine that "Men are the victims of DV, too! More than women!" It's that desire to dismiss the pain of many other women so they can keep their happy shiny world that puts them at odds with feminists, if only for the sheer bullshit factor. The fact that they're women, not men, is what makes it so disturbing. How many trafficked women and children does it take to shatter the self absorption of a dominatrix with a comfortable lifestyle? I haven't seen it happen yet.

One final act's missing from this little psychodrama. After RenEv's petty attack on Amanda, I expect to see a round of whining that ignores Ren Ev's little meltdown and makes Amanda the bad guy. I've had my differences with Amanda, but on this point she's right: part of fighting the patriarchy is examining our own decisions. If doing that makes it impossible to do things the way we used to, well, then, is that a bad thing? That's why they called it consciousness raising. Part of feminism is the desire to accept ourselves the way we are, without the enhancements that the patriarchy demands of us. Part of the reality of that is facing every day the resentment of people, especially men, who are used to women appeasing them with every facet of their being. I frankly think we should encourage exactly that, but I'm not going to gainsay any woman who doesn't want to, especially if she faces real consequences for it. Ideally, she should have other options---because she has feminists supporting her.

And can I just say I don't want to hear any stories about what feminine things you love doing? It always happens in discussions like this and I don't want to hear it. Why do women always seem to feel the need to prove how feminine they are whenever the topic of 'bad feminists' comes up? Whenever I see that, it seems to me that people have accepted the trope that being a feminist means hating everything feminine. Frankly, if I had my way I'd eliminate classifying any activity as inherently feminine or masculine, because it's not like men and women both can't wear makeup, cook dinner, raise kids, sew clothes, fight wars,dance, or write great books. Pregnancy, birth, and ejaculation are some of the few acts that can only be performed by one gender or the other.

My line for bitching about another woman's choices? Sure, let Michelle andJim Bob Duggar have as many kids as they want. I draw the line at refraining from pointing out how she's shortchanging her daughters, placing a strain on the ecosystem, and preaching that her choices are the only ones that ought to be allowed. While we're at it, how come Michelle's the target of jokes, while Jim Bob is utterly invisible? Such is the taboo against criticizing men in this culture: blinders automatically slap down. And when some well off dominatrix justifies her job because it works for her and tries to ignore all the trafficked women and children just because she wants to continue in her line of work, then that's a fit subject for criticism. To that I guess you could add a stripper who keeps justifying her tit job as a personal choice, when it makes her rates go up. In that respect, it's kind of like Ann Coulter, selling out other women so she can make a buck. Women who strip for survival in a crappy job market are entirely different from women who boast about how fulfilling it is, while they cater to mens' fantasies. Catering to mens' fantasies just makes those fantasies stronger and pacifies the men. I don't think that's an ethical choice, but then again, working in a dirty bookstore played a part in arousing the first stirrings of a feminist consciousness, as I began to wonder why exactly 'whore' and 'slut' were bad, why they were applied to only one half of a sexual pair, and why they were unshakeable labels. Myself, I'd rather fight those things that perpetuate them.


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"More than women!"
[info]stardragonca
2007-12-02 09:29 pm UTC (link)
This is,of course,the point when we realise that the person we are dealing with is utterly insane. As in completely round the twist,howling,barking,I-am-your-Emperor-worship-me,gibbering bonkers.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: "More than women!"
[info]ginmar
2007-12-02 09:31 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, Shakesville is notorious for attracting that kind of troll---the ones that hoard those rare cases like they're treasures.

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Re: "More than women!" - [info]stardragonca, 2007-12-02 10:04 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]glinda_w
2007-12-02 09:45 pm UTC (link)
Y'know, I never thought I had all that much self-esteem, but in the decades when I was underweight and "underendowed" I never once wanted to change that surgically; I did have to learn to alter some clothing to get rid of gaps.

Now that I've got the medication-induced overweight thing, and am over-endowed, I'm wishing Medicare covered breast reduction surgery; my backaches would decrease.

Gah. I hate our society.

(Reply to this)


[info]cscottd
2007-12-02 09:51 pm UTC (link)
Frankly, if I had my way I'd eliminate classifying any activity as inherently feminine or masculine, because it's not like men and women both can't wear makeup, cook dinner, raise kids, sew clothes, fight wars,dance, or write great books.

*applause*

(Reply to this)


[info]were_bear
2007-12-02 09:59 pm UTC (link)
Jung pointed out (and was largely ignored) that we are all bundles of archetypes; both masculine and feminine, our light side and our dark side, all intertwined. Attempts to divide them are doomed to disastrous failure.

For instance, I used to hate hearing the football coach berate lagging players as "girls" or "ladies." Using a term as a derogation is obviously going to create cognitive dissonance if that same term is supposed to be something to be revered, as they claimed... it was an early instance of my realizing just how full of it they were.

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[info]ginmar
2007-12-02 10:01 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I hate that. I've had dipshits claim that they're using 'cunt' as an insult in the British way or whatever. Like that makes a difference. That just means it's gotten so normalized people don't see it any more.

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(no subject) - [info]ciardhapagan, 2007-12-02 11:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]graydown, 2007-12-03 12:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 01:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hexyhex, 2007-12-03 01:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-12-03 02:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 02:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nimbrethil, 2007-12-03 02:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-12-03 02:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nimbrethil, 2007-12-03 02:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-12-03 03:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]greeneyedkzin, 2007-12-03 07:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pbrim, 2007-12-03 08:16 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cscottd
2007-12-02 11:26 pm UTC (link)
It's disturbing to me how many rude names (serious or "joking") are actually derogatory towards women.

I wracked my brain, and could only come up with two that weren't gender related: 'jerk' and 'asshole', and only one that was male-specific: 'prick'. Every other term that I could think of was a slur against women, either indirectly ('son of a bitch', 'bastard', etc) or directly (too many to list).

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-02 11:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cscottd, 2007-12-02 11:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lolleeroberts, 2007-12-03 12:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nimbrethil, 2007-12-03 02:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]roguetailkinker, 2007-12-04 09:21 am UTC (Expand)

[info]captainvanille
2007-12-02 10:12 pm UTC (link)
The only purpose of these "discussions" (read: heaps of shit) is to make feminists look like the enemy. (Note: not your post, the original discussion about "I like feminine things!!!!") And that's exactly what the intent is - to force feminists back into that little stereotype-box of "ugly, unshaven, manly", etc. And they do it because they've internalised the Patriarchal tenet that an outspoken, unshaven, fat, whatever! woman who doesn't give a shit about her "proper feminine place" is "manly" - and "manly" women aren't just bad; they're monsters. I'm convinced that that's why saying that Ann Coulter "looks like a man" is such an awful thing for her. Women who break the stereotypes that men have set out for them are labeled: irrational, hairy, hirsute, unshaven, bra-burning (and yes, I know this didn't happen), butch, ball-busting, man-hating, etc.

No wonder women who have internalised that want to distance themselves from us!

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[info]ginmar
2007-12-02 10:18 pm UTC (link)
Oh, tha'ts it in a nutshell. The Sex Pozzes are all about sucking up to men.

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(no subject) - [info]captainvanille, 2007-12-02 10:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-02 10:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]captainvanille, 2007-12-02 10:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-02 10:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]thediva_laments, 2007-12-02 11:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-02 11:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ciardhapagan, 2007-12-02 11:39 pm UTC (Expand)
"sex poz" - [info]sister_sheena, 2007-12-02 11:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "sex poz" - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-02 11:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-12-03 02:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]captainvanille, 2007-12-03 03:51 am UTC (Expand)
"ugly, unshaven, manly",
[info]stardragonca
2007-12-02 10:24 pm UTC (link)
"Irrational, hairy, hirsute, unshaven, bra-burning"(Burning a woman's shelter)"butch, ball-busting, man-hating" is such a good description. Of so many men.

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Re: "ugly, unshaven, manly", - [info]captainvanille, 2007-12-02 10:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: "ugly, unshaven, manly", - [info]stardragonca, 2007-12-03 02:49 am UTC (Expand)

[info]lolleeroberts
2007-12-02 11:48 pm UTC (link)
Have you noticed that a lot of these perjorative terms involve body hair? Body hair on women seems to make anti-feminists rabid. And isn't it interesting that so many of the insults intend to silence women are about their appearance?

I was looking at toy catalogs - guaranteed to raise your blood pressure - and all the female toys were about appearance or housework or childcare. It was eerie, as if the last 50 years hadn't happened at all.

You know, I'm in my 50s. I didn't think I'd still be fighting these battles today. Off to take my fat, unshaven self to the store to buy groceries for my butch, ball-busting self.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-02 11:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lolleeroberts, 2007-12-02 11:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ciardhapagan, 2007-12-03 12:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lolleeroberts, 2007-12-03 12:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hexyhex, 2007-12-03 01:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ekatarina, 2007-12-03 04:59 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 05:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ekatarina, 2007-12-03 05:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 05:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ekatarina, 2007-12-03 05:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 05:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rantinan, 2007-12-03 05:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 05:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 05:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]danaseilhan, 2007-12-03 04:02 am UTC (Expand)

[info]the_xtina
2007-12-02 11:33 pm UTC (link)
I can so clearly see that the two extremes of this topic (and of a lot of similar topics) are "Every woman's choice is feminist because a woman is making the choice so shut up!" and "Every woman's choice is influenced, if not dictated, by the patriarchy so stop doing that!".  Fits perfectly with boob jobs - seems like it can only be don't make any remark on the woman's choice or any choice about boob jobbage is direct via the patriarchy eom.

Meh.  I like this quote best because it fits with a million things like this.  A woman's choice is her own, but look at where that choice is coming from.  I'll not say someone shouldn't get surgery for whatever reason at all, but I'd prefer that they be aware of and self-honest about, as much as possible, why they're doing it.

/ramble

+coffee

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[info]ginmar
2007-12-02 11:51 pm UTC (link)
The whole point is telling women to examine their choices. Of course, the pro-No-thinking-group took that to mean, blaming and shaming.

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(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-12-03 02:39 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]the_xtina, 2007-12-03 05:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 05:48 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ciardhapagan
2007-12-03 12:16 am UTC (link)
Zuzu did make a good point about a weak spot in Amanda's post- the one that got the naturally large breasted women annoyed. Amanda didn't realize that fitting into her indie world's image of women was every bit conforming to sexism as a woman with big breasts dressing in sexual stereotyped ways is. I can see some of the vibe the naturally breasted women noticed coming from that too. I don't think it was meant to come off that way, but it does have a bit of that.

That being said, as a short fat naturally large breasted woman with a big behind and broad hips- I've NEVER had another feminist woman make any kind of comments or assumptions based on my size. It's all been from sexist men, "traditional" women and sex pox types.

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(no subject) - [info]mirandaflynn, 2007-12-03 01:14 am UTC (Expand)
Deja DooDoo
[info]kuleaunt
2007-12-03 12:53 am UTC (link)
I feel like this shit's happened before.

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Re: Deja DooDoo - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 12:54 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Deja DooDoo - [info]kuleaunt, 2007-12-03 02:23 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Deja DooDoo - [info]crankycrone_101, 2007-12-03 11:52 am UTC (Expand)

[info]mirandaflynn
2007-12-03 01:15 am UTC (link)
Your post is right of course, but I keep wanting to start it with "It is a truth universally acknowledged..."

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 01:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-12-03 02:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-12-03 10:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 03:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-12-03 05:53 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]witchywoo22
2007-12-03 01:16 am UTC (link)
"Like I said, it happens every time boob jobs come up; Ren Ev swoops in and justifies her tits, and Belledame just about always shows up, along with a few other sex pox cronies."

So true.

The sad thing is they really believe they're somehow revolutionary when, in fact, they're just right wing reactionaries.

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(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-12-03 10:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 02:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-12-03 03:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 04:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-12-03 05:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-12-03 05:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kuleaunt, 2007-12-03 07:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-12-03 08:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 05:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]roguetailkinker, 2007-12-04 09:33 am UTC (Expand)

[info]nekosensei
2007-12-03 03:18 am UTC (link)
Boob jobs? Screw boob jobs! What I need is breast reduction surgery. For one, it would certainly help with some of the stiffness and pain I get in my lower back...

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[info]flewellyn
2007-12-03 03:24 am UTC (link)
So should this be Ginmar's Third Law?

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 03:26 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]flewellyn, 2007-12-03 02:41 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ambitious_wench
2007-12-03 04:42 am UTC (link)
There was a female comedian who reclaimed "cunt" in a rather novel way: "Excuse me, that's Ms. Juicy Cunt to you!".

It's a line that's come in handy for me several times.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 04:46 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ekatarina
2007-12-03 04:56 am UTC (link)
I was actually just thinking about this while taking a bath last night.

I'm larger,... no, I'm huge, and I would do just about anything to be smaller. I haven't decided on surgery yet mostly due to the fear and concerns regarding major surgery but when I see women who want to add to their chest all I can saw it WTF?

The pain, misfitting of everything, the stooping, the humpback, the back pain, neck pain, leg pain, and the staring and gawking? No no thank you!

All my smaller friends understand that when we bitch about our mutual disatisfaction that they really do have it better. You can always pad a bit, but you can't slice some off for a special occassion.

Cheers,

Ekatarina

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[info]kuleaunt
2007-12-03 07:16 am UTC (link)
Wow. This is the second time in less than a week that I've heard the *I might die tomorrow* argument in support of breast implants. What's really odd is that the two places and people who said it are completely different in almost every way (age, politics, rationale, etc.). My response to both, however, is the same, "Yes, it could all be over at any moment and so it's of utmost importance that you leave a large breasted corpse." Sheesh.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 07:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kuleaunt, 2007-12-03 07:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kuleaunt, 2007-12-03 07:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 08:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 08:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-12-03 10:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 03:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-12-03 03:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-12-03 04:03 pm UTC (Expand)