ginmar ([info]ginmar) wrote,
@ 2007-11-08 11:40:00
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8 rapists who tortured and filmed victim, distributed DVD given therapy
Eight teenage rapists who set a girl's hair on fire, urinated on her, and distributed a DVD of the assault were given therapy. Um, you know, all the talk on that site ignores something kind of substantial: what about womens' right to be protected from assholes like this? Where were their parents? Keep in mind, these eight were part of a larger group of eleven, all as far as I know, free. What a great message to send rape victims. Your assailant is ill, honey, he's a victim, and you're jsut a symptom of his disease. Of course, he's the only one who gets treatment.

The idea that you can reform these scumbags is false, too. They have to want to reform. I'm sorry, but kids who are doing this kind of thing at this age don't strike me as reachable or capable of remorse especially seeing as how they're getting off. This is what, the fifth case of filmed rape resulting in either a mistrial or an acquittal recently? This used to be the gold standard of rape cases. Now you wonder if people are jerking off in the courtroom.

I don't believe you can reform rapists. They're committed to blaming the victim and feeling sorry for themselves, plus evading responsibility. That does not spell remorse. If these kids had expressed remorse, I'd feel differently, but they're old enough to not treat a girl like a dog and set her on fire, and also old enough to know--and not care---that filming a rape is a cruel shameful act. They just didn't care. That again speaks against remorse.

Therapy for sex offenders is a delusion the public wants to believe in because it---like blaming the victim---makes certain segments feel safer. In fact, it's the logical companion to blaming the victim. Absent remorse or responsibility, therapy is a useless exercise that just exposes more women to the attacks of the offender. The offender gets turned into a fluffy bunny. He's sick, poor dear. Sorry, don't buy it, and I'm sick of hearing it. In fact, rape is not a sickness. It's the logical extreme of a continuum that ends in rape, battery, and abuse. The rapist is just an extreme characture of what we expect of men. In a rape culture, he's not sick; he's perfectly extremely normal. Making it a sickness just gives these guys another excuse and I, for one, am profoundly sick of it.

If you steal, you're a thief. If you rape, you're a rapist. If you murder, you're a murderer. What matters is what you do. These guys raped, and by letting them off the court sent a message: not really a crime. Not really a victim. Let's slap some wrists.

Most rapists look like the guy next door because they are the guy next door. Most rapists are date rapists, who rape someone known to them. When you bring up this subject, one of the inevitable responses is this one: "But that means that a lot of men are rapists! You can't lock up all those men!" And rather than protect women from rape and rapists, we normalize rape till only the most extreme cases shock the senses. Men are protected, women tossed to the wolves, and people put on blinders.


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Now you wonder if people are jerking off in the courtroom.
[info]stardragonca
2007-11-08 06:09 pm UTC (link)
I'm not wondering. I'm asking the janitors.:(

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[info]stardragonca
2007-11-08 06:11 pm UTC (link)
We can lock up all those men.
And we should.
After all,it's not like ALL men are rapists.

(Reply to this)


[info]alleycatsphinx
2007-11-08 06:21 pm UTC (link)
Wasn't one of the parents the chief of police, or some such?

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-08 06:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]alleycatsphinx, 2007-11-08 06:44 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]fmh
2007-11-08 06:23 pm UTC (link)
"But that means that a lot of men are rapists! You can't lock up all those men!"

Sure you can.
How does the court not see the long term effect this sort of enabling is going to have? They've sent the message that nobody goes to jail for rape anymore, congrats...you've just made an already rape permissive culture even more lenient.

(Reply to this)

I'll say again what I said before
[info]bettyboondoggle
2007-11-08 06:30 pm UTC (link)
How can ANYONE look at this evil and not immediately see how violent porn (or just porn) is directly involved here. Where would they have gotten the idea to made and distribute the video of them raping and abusing this girl if not from porn? Where would they have gotten the idea that this is the type of thing people - like the flaccid wimp from yesterday - want to see in porn?

This, to me, is real world proof that porn is destroying people. Whether thats what it intends to do or not, it is destroying people.

(Reply to this)


[info]conuly
2007-11-08 06:32 pm UTC (link)
1. I agree that they are sick and need help, but in the meantime they *also* need to be kept away from the rest of society. If they were carrying smallpox I'd say the same thing - I don't want them walking around being sick where I am, or where anybody *else* is, for that matter. Indeed, if they're so sick that they can't recover and will constantly be a danger to others, then they probably should be kept isolated for a lot longer than the maximum sentence in this case.

2. they're old enough to not treat a girl like a dog and set her on fire, and also old enough to know--and not care---that filming a rape is a cruel shameful act.

In a sane world, it'd also be fucking stupid, as it'd land you with a heck of a lot of time being locked up, either in prison or for some serious help.

But this does not appear to be a sane world, I guess.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]tayefeth, 2007-11-09 12:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ciardhapagan, 2007-11-09 03:48 am UTC (Expand)

[info]flewellyn
2007-11-08 06:32 pm UTC (link)
Disgusting. They'd give 20 years or more for selling drugs, but brutally rape a young girl and they get therapy?

Why can't we lock up all those men who rape, anyway? If we let out the nonviolent drug offenders, we'd have plenty of room.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-08 06:33 pm UTC (Expand)
Jobs,jobs,jobs! - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-08 06:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]flewellyn, 2007-11-08 07:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-08 09:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ciardhapagan, 2007-11-09 03:50 am UTC (Expand)
IAWTC. - [info]roguetailkinker, 2007-11-09 07:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tayefeth, 2007-11-09 12:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2007-11-09 12:49 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]flewellyn, 2007-11-09 01:58 am UTC (Expand)

[info]pbrim
2007-11-08 07:00 pm UTC (link)
It is claimed that the therapy program has a high success rate. If so, I'm all for the boys getting therapy -- while incarcerated. The most they could get is 3 years as I understand it, but they should serve the 3 years, AND they should be ordered to pay restitution. That restitution, in my opinion, should not only include therapy for as long as she needs it and medical expenses, but also whatever she needs to help her feel safe, whether it's bars on the windows or an alarm system, or money each month to move to a safer neighborhood. Plus they should be forever barred from attending any school she attends (including higher education). And if that means they are sending money every month for the rest of their lives, so be it -- actions have consequences and sometimes those consequences are long lasting. (And it should be handled like child support sometimes is here in the US -- they send the money to the court, which then cuts a new check and sends it on to the woman. They never need to know where she is and she never has to deal with them.)

I am so tired of criminals expressing remorse in the courtroom and getting leniency for it. I can see that remorse might make a difference if it was something like a single impulsive act in the heat of anger, one of those things that the second you do it, you realize how wrong it is but it's too late to take it back. (And even then, remorse might lighten the consequences, but the consequence should be proportionate to the damage caused.) But this was a lengthy attack, not a single blow, not to mention the time taken to edit the film footage, create the DVD and distribute it. If you were so damn sorry about what you were doing, why didn't you stop doing it?

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(no subject) - [info]harmonyfb, 2007-11-08 08:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bibliofilen, 2007-11-09 10:07 am UTC (Expand)

[info]bonobochick
2007-11-08 07:08 pm UTC (link)
I don't even know what to say...

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No remorse, evidently - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-08 07:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]bonobochick, 2007-11-08 07:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]neutronjockey, 2007-11-08 08:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-08 09:30 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]neutronjockey, 2007-11-09 12:27 am UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]flewellyn, 2007-11-08 09:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-08 09:56 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]pbrim, 2007-11-09 12:24 am UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]neutronjockey, 2007-11-09 12:30 am UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]bites_the_sun, 2007-11-08 11:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]tebewilderness, 2007-11-10 05:31 am UTC (Expand)
Re: No remorse, evidently - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-10 05:33 am UTC (Expand)

[info]delphyne_
2007-11-08 07:31 pm UTC (link)
I think for a lot of people their first impulse when they hear a male is a rapist or child abuser is to want to comfort him and shield him from any consequences for his actions. It's unbelievably weird.

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(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-08 07:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delphyne_, 2007-11-08 07:50 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]se_parsons
2007-11-08 07:34 pm UTC (link)
It's nice how the plight of the victim is entirely ignored in the news coverage, also.

She's incidental to the story about the boys.

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[info]semiotic_pirate
2007-11-08 07:57 pm UTC (link)
I recently started subbing at a few nearby middle schools and high schools... When kids are together, their behavior feeds off of each other. If one kid starts acting out, he is fed into that behavior by the reactions of the other kids, and they start acting out and so forth. Mob mentality at its worst is when shit like this happens.

I wish we had mind-wiping technology so we could wipe the minds of these kids so that the nurture side of their fucked up little minds could be rebooted. People make choices, they chose to act on this. I am not sure if the punishment fits the crime... Do they have any priors? Is there any precedent in any of their lives? What taught them that this behavior was acceptable?

If you can catch them early and reprogram them? Dunno. The rapists that I truly despise are the ones that are so far gone... that have the essence of sociopathy and psychopathy. There are no excuses. If the treatment actually works? Great.

Is rape culture slightly different in each nation? What are Australia's statistics compared to the US?

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[info]cscottd
2007-11-08 08:24 pm UTC (link)
by letting them off the court sent a message: not really a crime

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a frightening number of people actually feel that way. They're not going to come right out and say it, of course, but I honestly think a lot of people secretly think that rape isn't really "all that bad", and I wonder if that may be one reason juries go easy on rapists.

I have actually heard more than one person, when talking about a rape, say something along the lines of "Well, at least he didn't hurt her," which tells me that (1) they have no clue, and (2) deep down inside, they don't really see rape as being the level of crime that it really is.

When/if confronted, most of them quickly back-pedal, either protesting that they "meant at least he didn't hurt her physically" or "of course rape is a terrible thing", but it just seems clear that they don't really believe it to be that bad. My guess is that they just either don't want people to think they're in favour of rape, or else they don't even realise how they really feel.

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(no subject) - [info]ciardhapagan, 2007-11-09 03:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]crankycrone_101, 2007-11-09 08:31 am UTC (Expand)

[info]bites_the_sun
2007-11-08 08:30 pm UTC (link)
I saw an article in a paper here in the UK a couple of years ago that said that sex offenders who receive therapy are statistically far more likely than ones who have not to re-offend once released. The logic behind this was that they are generally NOT, as you say, interested in or capable of feeling any remorse for their crimes, yet therapy at the hands of well-meaning therapists provides them with the means of learning the precise demeanor and vocabulary of remorse that parole boards find appealing and convincing, so they obtain release far earlier than those prisoners who do not receive any therapy at all.

I'm with you on 'kids' who pull this kind of crime. Anyone who commits this level of of crime, displaying a level of sadism reminiscent of the fucking SS, is not going to grow up into a functional and compassionate adult, no matter how much well-meaning therapists in their middle-class ivory towers try to pretend otherwise. They're predators and always will be as long as they have access to victims. All they're going to do is - as we KNOW from endless case studies on the worst violent offenders - keep on escalating in their violence until they're stopped by long-term incarceration. I fail to understand why anyone could advocate giving a already proven sadist and lunatic another chance to prove his sadism on me or anyone else.

Yet the courts insist on giving men who have committed heinous crimes and will re-offend second chances to wreak havoc on society on the premise they are young and therefore somehow deserve the chance to fuck up again. Like these: horrifying wastes of carbon atoms. I guarantee you - in a matter of a few years they'll be back in society after having parroted the right words at some board and will disappear back into obscurity where they'll again target the most vulnerable person they can find again. And everyone in Officaldom will express Offical Surprise and Disappointment while the rest of us headdesk to infinity. Same with the people who did this.

Oh, and I'll give you odds that the guy who did this had previous convictions for sexual offences in his home country or his adopted one. That's not exactly a beginner crime.

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-11-08 10:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]crankycrone_101, 2007-11-09 08:36 am UTC (Expand)

[info]bites_the_sun
2007-11-08 08:48 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and? This comment on Feministing:

Their crime is obviously terrible, but making an effort to rehabilitate them is more likely to improve their behavior than sticking them in a cell with a bunch of thugs.

...just floors me. Don't send them to jail or they might become THUGS!

Hello? That ship sailed a long fucking time ago. They ALREADY ARE THUGS. Thugs of the worst kind.

The level of denial in there, the level of sheer, lily-white naivety and the misplaced, dimwitted concern for boys who would most likely as soon rape and piss on the commenter, her family and her kids (if she has any) as look at her, is utterly fucking frightening.

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-11-08 11:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2007-11-09 12:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-09 12:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]conuly, 2007-11-09 01:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-09 01:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]roguetailkinker, 2007-11-09 07:21 am UTC (Expand)

[info]mad_brownbird
2007-11-08 09:02 pm UTC (link)
"Most rapists look like the guy next door because they are the guy next door."
My brother used to impress people all the time with his slick professionalism. He was offered jobs all the time because he presented such a pleasant appearance. And both he and my father were trusted with people's children. Both were vicious people. Neither were redeemable. They liked hurting women. They both felt it was a right. They just didn't want to get in trouble for it.

By the way -- I was the one who posted anonymously a few days ago on your journal entry, and mentioned that my brother had thrown me into a wall. I thought I should get a journal. This way, you at least know which anonymous person you're talking to.

Best wishes to all,
BrownBird

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-08 09:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mad_brownbird, 2007-11-09 12:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-11 06:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]firecatmn, 2007-11-08 09:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mad_brownbird, 2007-11-09 01:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]crankycrone_101, 2007-11-09 07:11 pm UTC (Expand)
A brave step - [info]jeric_synergy, 2007-11-09 06:53 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: A brave step - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-09 07:16 pm UTC (Expand)
'However, there will also be me..' - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-11 06:14 am UTC (Expand)

[info]sister_ananke
2007-11-08 09:34 pm UTC (link)
Don't forget this girl was intellectually disabled - a fact that most of the articles forget to mention. Her 'consent' was manufactured from her not knowing what they were doing/planning - "she willingly went with them!" defence.

It makes me fucking sick.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-08 09:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-08 09:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kefiraahava, 2007-11-09 12:20 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ciardhapagan, 2007-11-09 04:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]crankycrone_101, 2007-11-09 08:41 am UTC (Expand)

[info]nanowrimo_wolf
2007-11-08 10:36 pm UTC (link)
This was the case with the mentally disAbled woman, right? I think dudes who would prey on a woman with a disAbility in this way are probably even more far gone than those who would prey on a woman without one. Something is Very Wrong there.

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(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-11-08 11:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-11-08 11:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bites_the_sun, 2007-11-08 11:45 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]jackytar
2007-11-08 11:31 pm UTC (link)
To the troll whiners who use the below-quoted line:

"But that means that a lot of men are rapists! You can't lock up all those men!"

Sure you can. All the ones who aren't rapists have nothing to worry about. What's that? You say you're worried about false accusations? Well, hully gee, maybe some justice system reform is in order. Funny, though; it didn't seem to bother you 'til it looked like you might get your ass caught up in it. Guilty conscience much?

(Reply to this)


[info]sister_sheena
2007-11-09 12:12 am UTC (link)
This happened in my city, and it's one of those times when I would have really really liked to hurt someone. Badly.

By the way, the filming wasn't done just for their own use: they made copies & sold them, which is how the whole thing became public. They were pornographers, in other words. "Bunch of pixels", my ass.

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(no subject) - [info]delphyne_, 2007-11-09 12:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sister_sheena, 2007-11-09 02:08 am UTC (Expand)

[info]akubra_fedora
2007-11-09 01:30 am UTC (link)
I don't believe in 'therapy' for rapists, either. But CBT? Psycho training? Made to sit down and face what makes them a bad human being and to face the same kind of intimate torture their victims face? I believe in that. I believe in that, while they're in jail. I think we can all be 'reformed' of our abhorrent behaviours, unless we lack basic mental abilities like those with sociopathic and psychopathic problems. We can all be conditioned to stop. Would it detract from their quality of life, and their ability to enrich their passions? Yes, it would. Too bad society thinks it's still less wrong to allow women to be raped than to deny some men the pleasure of their sickness.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-09 01:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]roguetailkinker, 2007-11-09 07:37 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]crankycrone_101, 2007-11-09 06:58 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]candika
2007-11-09 03:32 am UTC (link)
I'm furious about this! And I'm just as furious at all the people who don't think these arseholes should be punnished. These young men perpetrated an act of violence and extreme brutality against that young woman and for some reason they think a few months of therapy should be sufficient punnishment? I strongly suspect that if there hadn't been a sexual element they would have been harder on them. I'm so pissed off I could spit. Women need to be protected from creatures like this and they just get a slap on the wrist? What kind of message does that send to other victims? And potential rapists for that matter.

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[info]visp
2007-11-09 06:51 am UTC (link)
Oh, I'm all for them recieving therapy while in prison.

See, take me for instance: I was raised to be very homophobic. I was raised in psycho christian boarding school where the tale of Sodom and Gommorah was regularly preached. I wouldn't have been violent against someone because they were gay, but I was taught that AIDS was a just punishment from God, and it wouldn't have occured to me to stop someone else from beating up a gay man just because of his sexual orientation, because that was just how things were supposed to go.

Then, I got out, and started to live in the real world. Then I met someone who was gay, and wouldn't you know it, he was a person just like everyone else. And slowly, it occured to me that what consenting adults did to each other was none of my business, and one day, I actually thought about it, and decided that no, I didn't believe being gay was morally wrong. I remember the exact instant, because it was the first time I had actually admitted to myself that I outright disagreed with the moral doctrine I had been taught as a child.

So if I could change, then it's possible that so could they. Morality, compassion, honor, decency - these things can be taught. It is possible that one day, they could learn to be decent people. However, this in no way mitagates what they have done, or the punishment that they deserve.

It's my opinion that everyone can change, and everyone can be decent, and often it's just a matter of finding a way to teach that other people are people too, and so deserve respect. It just doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they should be punished. You do something bad, you get punished. You want to stop doing that bad thing in the future, good for you, but you still have to pay for what you did. Just because someone can be changed, in no way invalidates what they already have done.

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[info]kali_ma
2007-11-09 04:18 pm UTC (link)
It reminds me of an incident from middle scool... a boy several years older than me hahd pinned me in a corner at recess behind where the school door opened and used it to trap me. When I tried to get out he repeatedly kicked me. Later when I went to tell on him, the teacher told me he was having a really hard time in life, his parents were alcoholics and he was just acting out, could we try to be more understanding of why he was misbehaving?

Edited at 2007-11-09 04:19 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [info]laurelinrain, 2007-11-09 05:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-09 05:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jeric_synergy, 2007-11-09 06:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-09 07:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jeric_synergy, 2007-11-09 07:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-09 07:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jeric_synergy, 2007-11-09 07:33 pm UTC (Expand)
Nah, I don't give a shit either. - [info]crankycrone_101, 2007-11-09 07:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-11-09 07:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kali_ma, 2007-11-09 07:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-11-09 07:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]actiasluna, 2007-11-10 05:13 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]crankycrone_101, 2007-11-10 08:18 am UTC (Expand)