ginmar ([info]ginmar) wrote,
@ 2007-03-13 09:30:00
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Can you cure racism with sexism? Do some guys get allowed to be sexist?
You know, every time there's a big brouhaha in the feminist world I look around and there's no poor feminists, or else there's feminists who are so beholden to men that feminism comes second. I'm sorry, but I just don't get why I'm supposed to tolerate the racism of some radical black feminists, when if you change the gender of the black person in a rape case their feminism goes right down the toilet. If it's a black woman victim, it's racism, but if it's black men accused of being like most rapists---men----then it's racist to point out their sexist behavior and shit. One reason the kids in the Central Park Jogger case were convicted was because they, their families, and their supporters were so unbelieveably sexist in open court. Calling the victim a whore and the prosecutor a bitch does not make you look like you're a victim of racism, however much white guys get away with it. Then again, I don't believe the solution to the higher conviction rates for black rapists is to let them get away with raping wohever they want, just like white guys. I think every rapist should be convicted, and that means convicting more white boys, get to it. They're all rapists, and I just don't care about anything else. In some highly-educated quarters, that makes me a racist, evidently. (These are the same people who cite F_W when they're feeling vicious, but nobody dares call them on it because then they'll start an interblog flame war.)It's getting on my frickin' nerves. Don't demand my help and then stand behind your man when he acts like any other man. Sexism is sexism and here's a clue, college girls: it's been around long before racism, because men discovered they were bigger and stronger than women a long time before they ventured far enough to find people with different skin colors. Yes, I am being condescending. You'd think people could look at a map and figure this out. What is one supposed to do when the defense for murder or abuse of women amounts to, "But white guys get away with it! Not fair!" It sounds an awful lot like they think that abusing women is something guys are entitled to do, and they're being deprived. So what are we, chopped liver? We're supposed to get doled out to whichever group of guys whines the most? Does anybody not get how this is pretty fucking fucked up?

It's not a luxury to be behind other women; it's a necessity, but time and again, they bring up lynchings and nobody ever dares to mention that somehow, in the popular myth, all lynchings were caused by lying white women. NOw why do you suppose that would be? Where's that feminism again? Approximately one quarter of lynchings were actually caused by accusations of rape, and of those a fair number were dreamed up by white men and blamed on sometimes non-existant women. Meanwhile, we get all the damned academic feminists ignoring the shit that poor men of all colors do to poor women. Rich women just get hated by everybdoy, a statement that F_W turned into, "Ginmar says white women can't be racist because they're oppressed." Yeah, I still haven't seen a link where I said that and I never will. When the slaves were freed, people like to forget that that meant only black men were freed. Like any white guy, they now owned their women just as much as white men owned theirs.

Sexism has always been a matter of private acts hidden behind curtains and doors, difficult to count and easy to dismiss. I once sat at a dinner table with a bunch of friends and had some young college girl say, seriously, that racism existed before sexism. I bet she thought OJ was innocent, too. Ignorance is ignorance. I hate all sexist men and women, and let me tell you poor guys can be vicious to uppity women. They don't have much else in the world, but God help us, they're men, and that's what they cling to, base their whole identity on. We had a guy on the block tell a friend of mine----whom he didn't know was my friend----that I hated black people. Turns out I'd called the cops on him because from three houses away I could hear his stereo at one AM. Typical sexist male: if you dare to take action against one guy, you hate all guys because any guy at all can apppoint himself spokesman for men. Guys sure as hell don't complain about sexist shit that other men say; what they complain about is the feminist response. It's like if they dare to betray other guys they're a girl or something. No matter how great the injustice, no matter how vile the act, no matter how unbelieveably sexist the rhetoric, men unite when the enemy is woman.

I expect F_W will try and do what they did to my RPF post, where they pulled quotes from the end of long discussions in the comments and implied they came from the essay itself, and ignored that the post was flooded by trolls such as [info]moonjaguar from their very own membership. Then there's the way they claim the above quote in the second paragraph describes my attitude. It's par for the course with those assholes: they make up rules so they can't get called on their own behavior---i.e., [info]snacky's law-----and when they're not calling me batshit they're saying stuff about sexism that could have come out of my mouth. You can't be a part time feminist, guys. As a matter of fact, if you give up your feminism because, well, the accused men is a buddy of yours, then you're only a feminist when it doesn't get in the way of your cheerleading for men.

You'd think there were no poor feminists out there, from the way the only ones who get cited are the college-educated ones, the ones who are sex positive, the ones who confuse 'radical feminist' with something that's trendy and not intellectual. Can you even be a feminists if you're poor? Poor girls are distrusted to a degree high above that which is levied against women, because they're uniformly assumed to be sluts and gold diggers. Poor in the case of women means you're assumed not to have any intellect at all, and that you have a wild untamed sexuality. Helps if you're pretty, too: ordinary-looking poor women are sneered at because they can't afford anything but clothes at the dollar store. Being cheap is only glamourous if you don't have to do it. Meanwhile, your more well-off feminist sisters talk about conferences and Marxism and shit like that, and you're dealing with the fact that the men around you are abusing girls and women, and the cops won't believe you, because once they were those men. Sometimes you find words to describe it. And sometimes your experiences are so alien that people whose idea of hardship is missing their train are simply made so uncomfortable that you just get shut out. Academics have only one use for poor people: as subjects. They don't bond with poor people: they study them, and sometimes, it just gets to you.

Down on the lower ladders of the economic ladder, race relations and gender relations have a tendency to look an awful lot alike, except while there are words no white person can say, anybody can call a woman anything and have it stick. Racial slurs label the person tossing them, but sexist ones attach themselves to the woman for good, and the labeller gets to further attack, often forever. A woman doesn't have to sleep with twenty men to get called a slut or a whore; all it takes it twenty guys repeating the story, or ten guys repeating it, or even five guys repeating it. That'll get listened to eagerly but if the same woman gets raped, her side of the story is conspicuously absent-----until someone brings up the fact that everybody knows she slept with twenty guys! At a party! For money! The big difference between racism and sexism is that racism makes white people feel good about themslves when they fight it, and gives black people a voice----well, unless they're women-----while fighting sexism is considered a case of the cure being worse than the diseases. It's not like feminism gets guys any more blowjobs, does it? And feminism means more ugly chicks, right? Racism inpsires long dark nights of the soul; sexism disappears from the newspapers really quickly, like the case where a man dragged his girlfriend from the back of his truck by the neck till she died. When a guy does that to a black man, it's a lynching; when a guy does that to his girlfriend, there's the sneaking suspicion that she asked for it. Anybody who's still bitching about comparing racism and sexism needs to consider that.


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[info]used_songs
2007-03-13 04:45 pm UTC (link)
Among my middle school students it is completely unacceptable to use a racial slur, and becoming unacceptable to call someone "gay" or a "faggot," but they still make pretty free with the sexist language.

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[info]ginmar
2007-03-13 04:55 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, and thus it ever was.

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(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-13 08:45 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]nimbrethil
2007-03-13 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Sometimes I think this has to do with the nature of the language. It's damn near invisible.

I've created a reputation for myself--not necessarily a good one, as often it amounts to eyerolling and whispers of "careful, she'll go apeshit if you ues that word1"--amongst my friends and acquaintances by taking issue with the use of such labels as whore and slut, and to a lesser degree, bitch.

What I've noticed is that while words like nigger and fag are unequivocally derogatory to blacks or gays as an entire class, sexist terms like whore slide under the radar simply because most (I've met at least one guy who refers to women as a class with certain hateful slurs) men--and women, for that matter--don't use sexist slurs as a collective slam against women, and so the inherent sexism is less obvious.

Certainly there are people who strongly object to being accused of sexism for lobbing the term "whore" at a woman because they truly are not personally labeling all women as whores. They genuinely are only referring to a specific woman, or a "type" of woman and so they can't objectively see the problem.

I've been able to make headway with at least one of my female friends learning to recognize sexism when she sees it, but I had to essentially go into lecture mode in a situation where she couldn't run away.

What got her attention was pointing out that there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, and that most of the time, the social bias against whores isn't the the sleeping around part, it's that it's women doing the sleeping around.

But yeah. I think part of the reason why sexism is so easily overlooked is simply that it's so imbedded into the culture that people literally can't see it in a clear case of not seeing the forest for the trees. There's overt sexists, the men who do go around collectively referring to the entire female population of the world as skirts, frails, whores, bitches, pieces of ass, etc., and people who've lived so steeped in the stereotypes and double-standards for so long they don't recognize when they are perpetuating them.

I don't know what to do about the former short of tagging them in a way that the rest of us see them coming and can duly ignore their existence. For the rest, it boils down to educating our friends whenever we can, however we can.

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there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-13 08:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-13 08:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, - [info]nimbrethil, 2007-03-13 09:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, - [info]pbrim, 2007-03-13 09:26 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-13 09:39 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, - [info]nimbrethil, 2007-03-13 09:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, - [info]tayefeth, 2007-03-13 10:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, - [info]pbrim, 2007-03-14 12:12 am UTC (Expand)
Re: there is no equivalent word for "whore" to describe a man who sleeps around, - [info]ciardhapagan, 2007-03-14 02:05 am UTC (Expand)
the picture it usual conjures is male - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-14 06:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]danaseilhan, 2007-03-14 05:46 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]greeneyedkzin
2007-03-13 05:06 pm UTC (link)
Three questions: when did black men get the franchise in the U.S.?
when did Native American men get the franchise?
When did women get the national franchise (Wyoming was earlier)?

And then you get these graduate-school-level critters saying "oh, female genital mutilation is part of this country's culture, and we're such cultural imperialists that we don't know that." Probably, no one's cutting at them. I do wish I'd run into one of them: I've worked up some perfectly diabolic routines, starting with calling them patronizing memsahibs.

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[info]stardragonca
2007-03-13 06:38 pm UTC (link)
*coughGermaineGreercough*

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(no subject) - [info]greeneyedkzin, 2007-03-13 09:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-13 09:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nimbrethil, 2007-03-13 09:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]greeneyedkzin, 2007-03-13 11:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-03-13 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-13 09:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-03-13 10:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ciardhapagan, 2007-03-14 02:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]greeneyedkzin, 2007-03-13 11:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]danaseilhan, 2007-03-14 05:48 pm UTC (Expand)
Karen Armstrong - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-13 09:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]greeneyedkzin, 2007-03-13 11:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-14 09:59 am UTC (Expand)

[info]chasingmoksha
2007-03-13 05:20 pm UTC (link)
Tell me about it. I don't know what F_W is. I have always been poor and now that I am educated I do not inspire to be middle class and have possessions because I do not support overconsumption. I digress. I get treated like shyt all the time. Recently I won the poor white woman award because I dared to point out a few hypocrisies that I have observed.

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[info]ginmar
2007-03-13 10:17 pm UTC (link)
F_W is a community of people who never change their minds, no matter how much things change around them. Once they've declared you something or other, they're too cowardly to acknowledge change. They've misquoted me or quoted me out of context---as I said, quoting the tail end of a long discussion about the defense of personal rights so as to give a false impression of the conversation and piece w hich spurred it. They regularly bash people, then flood the person's journal to harass them. As I said, one of their favorite things to say about me, is "Ginmar said white women can't be racist because they're opppressed." They also took the side of two conservative women against me because I used sexist language on them, when at the time I made a practice of using sexist language against sexist women. I don't regret it, I won't apologize for it, but I'll be fucked if they've ever once acknowledged that these two shits were getting on me for opposing the renewal of the Patriot Act. You know the one where your civil rights get taken away? STyle matters more than substance to them. I've seen them say things that I could have and have said about womens' rights and the men who oppose them, but they don't have the intellectual honesty to admit it.

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(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-14 10:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]danaseilhan, 2007-03-14 05:49 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-14 08:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Yep - [info]womensspace, 2007-03-15 05:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Yep - [info]ginmar, 2007-03-16 01:13 pm UTC (Expand)
HA!
[info]womensspace
2007-03-15 05:38 pm UTC (link)
I think every rapist should be convicted, and that means convicting more white boys, get to it. They're all rapists, and I just don't care about anything else. In some highly-educated quarters, that makes me a racist, evidently. (These are the same people who cite F_W when they're feeling vicious, but nobody dares call them on it because then they'll start an interblog flame war.)It's getting on my frickin' nerves. Don't demand my help and then stand behind your man when he acts like any other man.

HAH!! As my co-award-winner, chasingmoksha would say.

Or nobody dares call them on it because they will be kicked to the curb instantly and then lied, harrassed, and stalked all over the blogosphere including on anti-feminist, men's rights blogs, because, hey, it feels so damn good to eviscerate, internet-style, the one group of women it is still acceptable to eviscerate and still call yourself a feminist!

Fuckers.

Anyway, thanks, ginmar. As I keep saying, I love you.

xxxooo

Heart

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[info]nikkicub
2007-03-13 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Mm. When black men, Latino men, or Asian men exercise dominance, it's "part of their culture". When white men do it, it is silently excused. Or, you get the rhetoric of "no wonder feminists hate men; no man would have those ugly shrews."

Ever occur to you to wonder what turns women into 'shrews', smart ass?

(And then I get "You can't be a feminist! You're cute and polite and wear dresses and floral prints!" Way to miss the point, guys.)

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shrews
[info]stardragonca
2007-03-13 09:35 pm UTC (link)
Now there's a term I've not heard said of a man.

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Re: shrews - [info]nikkicub, 2007-03-14 03:01 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: shrews - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-16 04:37 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ginmar
2007-03-13 10:19 pm UTC (link)
I got the same thing: "You can't be a feminist! You like lingerie!"

And with that, his chances of seeing it in situ pretty much disappeared. If men would only stop shooting themselves in the foot they'd get laid more often. Then they compound it by blaming it on women. "You confused me!"

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lingerie - (Anonymous), 2007-03-20 05:25 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]danaseilhan
2007-03-14 05:51 pm UTC (link)
The one time in my life somebody called me a shrew, it was after months of him treating me like shit and me giving him hell right back in kind. Gee asshole, quit cheating on me and lying to me and kinda notice you actually have a kid on the way and I might stop nipping at your heels. Dipshit.

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You'd think people could look at a map
[info]stardragonca
2007-03-13 06:14 pm UTC (link)
Look at a map? We are talking about The U.S.,here. Most people don't even own a map.
This is the source of people in the States wanting to believe that Cleopatra the seventh was black. She's the only African ruler anyone has ever heard of*,and the Public Library is like blocks away!


*Come to think,she may be the only African woman most people in the U.S. have ever heard of.:(

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Better yet
[info]ginmar
2007-03-13 10:20 pm UTC (link)
Makes about as much sense as believing she was a slut based on Roman graffiti.

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Re: Better yet - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-14 08:32 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: You'd think people could look at a map
[info]tayefeth
2007-03-13 10:58 pm UTC (link)
I've never seen a color picture of Cleopatra that I'm willing to credit with any degree of accuracy, so I wouldn't know what color her skin was. I'm pretty sure her hair was black and her skin was darker than the average Swede's, though.

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Re: You'd think people could look at a map - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-14 06:20 am UTC (Expand)
Re: You'd think people could look at a map - [info]tayefeth, 2007-03-14 10:09 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: You'd think people could look at a map
[info]nimbrethil
2007-03-14 01:17 am UTC (link)
Um.

I'm an American and I've never heard of anyone wanting to believe that Cleopatra the seventh was black.

Then again, my own experience has been watching white people get very, very, very angry and take grievous personal offense on behalf of others if someone is inaccurately (or merely perceived to be inaccurately) referred to as black.

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Re: You'd think people could look at a map - [info]danaseilhan, 2007-03-14 05:54 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: You'd think people could look at a map - [info]tayefeth, 2007-03-14 10:12 pm UTC (Expand)
It's like if they dare to betray other guys they're a girl or something.
[info]stardragonca
2007-03-13 06:23 pm UTC (link)
Or something. It's not *like* that. It *is* that.
If you aren't prepared to respond to crap about women with "Ok,then I must be a woman,because I don't like it either," then you are not entitled to be called a feminist man.

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[info]jeric_synergy
2007-03-13 06:29 pm UTC (link)
Seems to me you're pulling your punches here: what are the NAMES of these comfortably-off academicians? (I'm assuming the academician part, since they always seem to be leading citizens of Kluulessia.)

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2007-03-13 10:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Academics have only one use for poor people: as subjects.
[info]stardragonca
2007-03-13 06:34 pm UTC (link)
Somebody once told me that Anthropology was the study of people who are poorer than you.

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Re: Academics have only one use for poor people: as subjects. - [info]glamazonwarrior, 2007-03-13 06:51 pm UTC (Expand)
At least one wrote it up! - [info]rozasharn, 2007-03-13 08:29 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: At least one wrote it up! - [info]greeneyedkzin, 2007-03-13 09:03 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: At least one wrote it up! - [info]glamazonwarrior, 2007-03-13 09:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: At least one wrote it up! - [info]ginmar, 2007-03-13 10:22 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: At least one wrote it up! - [info]danaseilhan, 2007-03-14 05:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Academics have only one use for poor people: as subjects. - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-13 08:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Academics have only one use for poor people: as subjects. - [info]glamazonwarrior, 2007-03-13 09:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Academics have only one use for poor people: as subjects. - [info]stardragonca, 2007-03-14 10:02 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Academics have only one use for poor people: as subjects. - [info]glamazonwarrior, 2007-03-14 01:38 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]radicallystormy
2007-03-13 09:22 pm UTC (link)
Brilliant post Ginmar.
xx

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(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2007-03-15 04:44 pm UTC (Expand)
Great Post
(Anonymous)
2007-03-15 04:36 pm UTC (link)
Wow, great post. Don't know how to leave my ID (I'm a blogger though)!(my blog is http://fateischance.blogspot.com)

I agree, although I am one of those academic people (!!). Perhaps it depends how you look at the world. I don't consider myself any better than someone with less or no education, it just gives me more opportunities job wise. I also love learning about things, challenging myself. It's refreshing and interesting to read blogs that say it like it is, if that makes sense?

I feel that sometimes people do skirt around issues they feel uncomfortable about. It takes a lot of privilege examination when you're a feminist, or are becoming a feminist. Its true, others have more than some, I'm well aware that I'm a middle class educated woman but I try my hardest to understand where other people are coming from. My deafness has helped me to be more aware of things that other people may not be aware of, privilege wise.

Anyway, sorry if my comment seems a bit confused. I like your blog :)

(Reply to this)

Hypocrisies
(Anonymous)
2007-03-15 06:03 pm UTC (link)
...sexism disappears from the newspapers really quickly, like the case where a man dragged his girlfriend from the back of his truck by the neck till she died. When a guy does that to a black man, it's a lynching; when a guy does that to his girlfriend, there's the sneaking suspicion that she asked for it. Anybody who's still bitching about comparing racism and sexism needs to consider that.

Or when a guy does that to his girlfriend and neither is white, you're not supposed to write about it.

This strikes a huge nerve with me and this is why. I blogged about this and the DAUGHTER of the woman who was murdered by being dragged behind the boyfriend's truck for a mile, showed up and commented on my blog -- in Spanish, at length. She brought everybody up to date (after profacero and others kindly translated), and more importantly, and she provided info as to where people could contribute money for the woman's kids and grandkids who were not in the U.S. and who were the reason she was in the U.S. working three jobs, to begin with.

Do you think ANY of the F_W's, who I know, because I can read my logs, read my blog faithfully, bothered to publicize this information, either link to my blog post, mention it, publish info as to how to help the family? HELL NO. To me that is the most despicable form of hypocrisy. Tell me these people give one good goddamn about women. They do ONLY when it suits other purposes they have.

Heart



(Reply to this)

Hypocrisies
[info]womensspace
2007-03-15 06:06 pm UTC (link)
...sexism disappears from the newspapers really quickly, like the case where a man dragged his girlfriend from the back of his truck by the neck till she died. When a guy does that to a black man, it's a lynching; when a guy does that to his girlfriend, there's the sneaking suspicion that she asked for it. Anybody who's still bitching about comparing racism and sexism needs to consider that.

Or when a guy does that to his girlfriend and neither is white, you're not supposed to write about it.

This strikes a huge nerve with me and this is why. I blogged about this and the DAUGHTER of the woman who was murdered by being dragged behind the boyfriend's truck for a mile, showed up and commented on my blog -- in Spanish, at length. She brought everybody up to date (after profacero and others kindly translated), and more importantly, and she provided info as to where people could contribute money for the woman's kids and grandkids who were not in the U.S. and who were the reason she was in the U.S. working three jobs, to begin with.

Do you think ANY of the F_W's, who I know, because I can read my logs, read my blog faithfully, bothered to publicize this information, either link to my blog post, mention it, publish info as to how to help the family? HELL NO. To me that is the most despicable form of hypocrisy. Tell me these people give one good goddamn about women. They do ONLY when it suits other purposes they have.

Heart



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word of support from a nonwhite radfem
(Anonymous)
2007-03-18 05:00 pm UTC (link)
I'm a nonwhite woman and radical feminist; I couldn't agree with this post more. I have had white sex positive feminists and liberals, when I disagree with them, accuse me of being racist. I refuse to support men of color if their idea of advancing their rights involves taking back the ownership of "their" women (and gaining rights of ownership over white women); most white feminist bloggers are usually receptive to the experiences of people of color, most men of color are actively hostile towards feminism. Being nonwhite is NOT a get out of the patriarchy free card. Ignoring their misogyny (and I think it is analogous to what you said about poor men) harms women of color, who are usually the only women they can oppress.
Years ago, I saw a video by an Asian American man (I'm Asian-American), in which he criticized white men who objectified Asian women, pointing out their racism, arrogance, etc.. Then at the end of the video HE objectified Asian women with lots of sexy, lingering shots of conventionally beautiful Asian women! And I was shocked, that he had only minutes before condemned the sexualization of Asian women and now he was doing it himself? That was the first inkling that I had ...
With the exception of a few matriarchal societies, most civilizations including nonwhite ones - Imperial Japan, Han China, the Ottoman Empire, Mesopotamian empires, the Aztecs, etc. etc. - have all been patriarchal. Our modern concept of white supremacist race and racism (and of course people have always been bigoted, prejudiced and ethnocentric) dates back to the early modern period, whereas sexism has existed before there even was written law and documentation. I think that's why it's easier for people to attempt legal remedies of racism, and then get squeamish about legally remedying sexism (witness the ERA).
And yes, the whole "does gender trump race?" thing gives white feminist bloggers an excuse to soapbox about how they're not like those big bad rad fems and to feel a little less guilty about their white privilege.
Sorry for the ramble and thanks again for this post!

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Re: word of support from a nonwhite radfem - (Anonymous), 2007-05-08 11:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: word of support from a nonwhite radfem - [info]ginmar, 2007-05-08 11:44 pm UTC (Expand)
I agree with you
(Anonymous)
2007-08-19 09:09 pm UTC (link)
You bring up some really excellent points. You're 100% correct. There is no comparison of racism and sexism. I get treated completely different than would a black male and it's not good treatment, not by my definition. When I hear someone say to me "Well, I'm more likely to hire a black woman than I am to hire a black man" what I hear is 'You're not a physical threat to me like a black man is. He can physically defend himself. I can intimidate you with the POSSIBILITY of violence. I can't do that with a black man. And besides, you're a woman. No one's going to believe you over me." Thus, is the double bind of my existence.

I admonish myself everytime that I have to be in the company of another black person who thinks it's okay to denigrate white people. I can't participate in those conversations and I'm often stuck with sitting there feeling so torn. On one hand I want to say something because I don't think it's fair to attack someone when they're not around to defend themselves irregardless of their color. And then on the other hand I have to weigh whether or not I want to suffer the social sanctions that come along with defending the unpresent offended-trust me: Black people are no more kind than white people are when it comes to hate-talking: The whole ideology of 'if you're not participating with us you're against us and we're against you' comes into play when it happens and it's brutal. I've gotten to the point in my life where I don't even seek out other black people as friends anymore just so I can AVOID the possibility of the akward conversation.

As a matter of fact I had to stop talking to my sister about the whole Kobe Bryant case. Her contention was that this woman had charged Kobe Bryant because she couldn't handle his big, black manhood and that she was a tramp because she'd had sex with two men before she had sex with Kobe Bryant. My position was that rape is rape. No means no. Just because you're a sportstar doesn't mean you get some sort of all access pass to violating every woman you come across and think that enough sufficient righteous indignation will discourage her from telling someone else, hopefully the authorities, that you forced her to have sex with you after she told you 'no'. This same sister (biological if you're wondering) felt that the Lacrosse team that had been accused of raping the 'stripper' (I'm still trying to figure out how her profession had anything to do with her being raped) should have been prosecuted. For me, the issue was the same: Rape is rape. No means no. Objectively both of these cases should have been handled and approached the EXACT SAME WAY but they weren't. There was ONE CONSTANT VARIABLE in both of them though-the woman's 'reputation' or purported reputation was attacked. And lo and behold, more people thought the way my sister thought and BOTH WOMEN dropped charges.

You were absolutely right when you said "Down on the lower ladders of the economic ladder, race relations and gender relations have a tendency to look an awful lot alike, except while there are words no white person can say, anybody can call a woman anything and have it stick."-Dr. Deborah Tannen talks about this in her book "Talking from 9 to 5". A woman's sex is always used against her even by other women.

Women can be just as sexist as men are and moreso in certain situations.

Good work. I'm interested in reading more of what you have to say.

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